From farm at surfglobal.net Sat Dec 1 06:19:06 2007 From: farm at surfglobal.net (PER GARP) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 06:19:06 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info References: <002f01c83129$1b78a250$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C><02b301c831ae$05019740$2502a8c0@IBM56F9D334E88><0F575DBD-E2AD-4A94-951C-0E3DEB085D0E@shaw.ca><9fa601c831c7$25960220$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d><001401c831dd$ad1bc1b0$de22833f@HPTower> Message-ID: <00b301c83414$606214d0$6c22833f@HPTower> Paul -Thanks Can you explain the differences in your selection in BC compeered to the EU selections, is it the same seed crosses, but not the same selections based on different results ? Is Petite Milo the only type that has been tested in NS ? If additional types have been tested in NS (close to my climate) can you tell us abut the grower experience, particularly with a 0-spray growing methods !!!! Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Troop To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Hi Per, Here's the information you requested about the Blattner vines. I can tell you what I know, but not necessarily all of what you want. Shipping to the USA is impossible. If the material shows up via 'suitcase' in the USA it will create problems for these varieties in the future. I have 5 varieties at the CFIA for virus testing and I will make those available to USA growers when the clearance comes. Overall I have 60 varieties, most of which are numbered. The first few numbers I've listed may be a bit puzzling but there is a story, for another time. #1,2,4,8,9 plus Petite Milo, Cabernet Libre, and Cab Foch are from a first selection of Blattner vines on the west coast of Canada. To the best of my knowledge, all these eight crosses of earlier Blattner Cabernet crosses X various secondary parents, some of which are also Blattner Cabernet crosses. #2, 8, and Petite Milo are white the rest are red. The other 51 varieties are mainly but not entirely, Cabernet crosses, about half white and half red. These are second selection vines, chosen in Ontario in 2002 for disease resistance, early ripening, and commercial production potential. These plants were in 4th leaf this year in my vineyard. None have had any spray of any kind! Small lot winemaking has taken place. By spring time I'll post a full report on what I've learned. For those interested in cuttings or grafted vines there are some available, but ONLY in Canada. Please contact me offlist. What I should be able to ship this year are: Cab Foch Petite Milo Cabernet Libre There is limited material so it will be first come first serve. All wood will be shipped in 3 or 4 bud cuttings depending on internodal lengths and pricing will include a $1 royalty to Mr. Blattner. All plants come with a non propagation/breeding agreement. I have included a small desciption of the three varieties. Cab Foch -- Red There is some confustion about the Blattner vines in particular the Cab Foch vine. There is only one Blattner Cabernet (numbered variety) X Foch cross in Canada I am aware of and it has gone on to be generally called Cab Foch. This is a mid season variety and is quite disease resistant. It is somewhat vigourous. Clusters are on the small side and loose. On the BC west coast it can acheive up to 26 brix in good years and in poor years should make 22 or more. Acids tend to be slightly high and pH low. If grown well in VSP you could achieve up to 4 tons per acre but most would struggle to get more than 2 1/2 tons. To get the best results attention must be given to shoot placement, leaf and fruit sun exposure. This is not a variety for lazy vineyard practises in a marginal area. Valentin Blattner claims it has some phyloxerra tolerance. There is a fair amount of lateral production so trimming is required. Flavours develope fairly early so while longer hang times would be a benefit they are not a necessity. I have not needed to spray fungicide on this variety in our location. Cab Foch wine tends to be very dark, full bodied, with subdued tannins and moderately high alcohol. Flavours show nuances of Cabernet and Foch. Barrel aging is suggested. Blending with more tannic varieties produces complex wines. Cabernet Libre -- Red This vine can produce an good crop, up to 6 tons, of long, almost full clusters, but in most places crops are between 3-4 tons. It has very late bud burst, and is one of the first to veraison. It has shown very good disease resistance to powdery mildew and botrytis. It is has moderate vigour and produces well on its own roots. In cooler situations it may benefit from grafting to 3309, 101-14, Riperia or Swartzmann. The fruit has the flavour of green peas until ripe so care must be taken to allow the fruit to mature. VSP is the preferred trellising system. There is marginal lateral production and it has small Cab like leaves. No fungicide required here. The wine tends to be dark, somewhat tannic, with balanced acids and cassis, cherry and blueberry notes. If an extracted wine is made it could take 2-4 years for release. In some years it can taste much like a Loire Cab Franc. I recommend barrel aging. It is a good choice for a site that is susceptable to a late spring frost. Petite Milo -- white This is one of the earliest varieties in our region. It has early bud burst and early veraison. Petite Milo will ripen reliably, retain acidity and make a range of wines, from a late harvest Riesling style to a delicate floral dry wine. It seems to have done well in the past two Nova Scotia winters. In our region we can easily see 25 Brix with 9 grams of acid by late September although this year it was only about 23 Brix at that time. In Nova Scotia this year it was reported to achieve 23.9 Brix, TA 12.25 pH 3.09. Petite Milo has small tight clusters that require good sun exposure to ripen. For the first time this year we saw botrytis however it happened in a dry spell and that enhanced the wine. The leaves and wood tend to get powdery mildew at the end of the season but I have never seen any on the fruit. It might require one or two sprays of fungicide in locations that do not have good air flow. VSP or Scott Henry would seem to be the trellising choices. The vine performs well own rooted but might show increased fruit production if grafted. We have some grafted Petite Milo coming into second leaf this year so it will be another two seasons before we see if it responds positively to grafting. We have put it on 5 BB to enhance fruit set and delay maturity, as well as 3309. Contact me for more information. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] What do we grow PAUL CAN you tell us abut this "60 varieties of Blattner vines" and perhaps show us somew photos of the best and gratest types. best Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Troop To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [Growwine] What do we grow The idea of sharing info on the varieties grown is excellent. Out here on Salt Spring Island I have 60 varieties of Blattner vines, Pinot Noir, Pinot Gris, Chardonnay, St. Laurent, Foch, Leon Millot, Zweigelt, Regent, New York Muscat. Paul -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/333d524e/attachment-0001.html From farm at surfglobal.net Sat Dec 1 07:29:37 2007 From: farm at surfglobal.net (PER GARP) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 07:29:37 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> Message-ID: <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/eb13e26b/attachment.html From smelchis at maine.rr.com Sat Dec 1 08:40:37 2007 From: smelchis at maine.rr.com (Steve Melchiskey) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 08:40:37 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> Message-ID: <9A220D42-D41D-4DE0-A8D5-D98CF8FBE8CD@maine.rr.com> Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: > Larry and all, > > I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" > Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the > growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this > "HYBRID" name will imply. > > I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! > > GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S > > NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, > HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! > YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" > BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" > HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. > WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" > > MY GRAPES ARE: > AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE > AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT > HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. > > HAPPY- HAPPY > PER > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Paterson > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info > > Paul: > > I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/ > viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know > which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that > the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. > > The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and > made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. > > Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http:// > ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer- > limits-of-ontario.html > > even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow > down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has > left a footprint at the bottom of this page). > > Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer > Limits, including the Blattners, at > > http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of- > ontario-wine.html > > Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once- > every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with > ways to make it happen... > > Lardy > > Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc > (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) > > http://www.littlefatwino.com/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Bulas > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info > > Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was > lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the > Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with > the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would > ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as > possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" > the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario > country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their > wines made available for consumers. > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/f22ca5ba/attachment.html From redwine at charter.net Sat Dec 1 09:05:22 2007 From: redwine at charter.net (Rob McDowell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:05:22 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <9A220D42-D41D-4DE0-A8D5-D98CF8FBE8CD@maine.rr.com> Message-ID: No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limit s-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-w ine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/a5b76655/attachment.html From farm at surfglobal.net Sat Dec 1 10:36:17 2007 From: farm at surfglobal.net (PER GARP) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 10:36:17 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride References: Message-ID: <004201c8342f$eab0c620$c622833f@HPTower> Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/4f80d561/attachment.html From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 1 11:25:53 2007 From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:25:53 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> Message-ID: Larry, John Fancsy was kind enough to let us try the HG-01 and HG-03 wines, independent of the Outer Limits tasting. Were contemplating whether to plant either or not. After tasting them we decided not to plant either of them. I'd agree for the most parts with your assessment of HG-01 but HG-03 was still a little unrefined in it's flavours with some definite strong vegetal notes coming through. Possibly some oaking might have helped these wines as both did show a vegetal character. Tannin structure was better then comparable wines, although it did come across as a rather dusty tannin impression. At the Bounty from the County Trade Show in Leamington, Hans also talked about a couple of whites that are being brought along. HG-07 and HG-08 but no further information re parentage. The Blattner crosses may be worth consideration but we are also aware of some research being done at the University of Minnesota Horticultural Research Centre in the area of cold hardy, disease resistant Merlot and Cabernet types that are a few years away yet from being released. They also have Riesling, Gewurz types along the lines of La Crescent and a more neutral Chardonnay type in the pipeline that's yet to be released. Stay tuned on these ones. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/b627447f/attachment.html From vnefv at brant.net Sat Dec 1 11:32:09 2007 From: vnefv at brant.net (Phil Ryan) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:32:09 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride References: <004201c8342f$eab0c620$c622833f@HPTower> Message-ID: <02dc01c83437$bb8c2a30$c224cdd1@mycomputer> Gentlemen; We need to have this discussion. I like Steve's explanation. If you look at Hawkins Giant Grape Glossary, you will see that many vinifera species are hybrids. Lets find the right words that we can use. Maybe its as simples as vinifera and "post vinifera". Phil Ryan ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1162 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 9:26 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/ca01a560/attachment-0001.html From taylorhe at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 1 11:43:54 2007 From: taylorhe at sympatico.ca (Herb Taylor) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:43:54 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Fw: where are we all from Message-ID: Herb Taylor, Waterford ON, taylorhe at sympatico.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: melissa lounsbury To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] where are we all from Sounds good to me. Maurice Lounsbury Katelin Grape Farms INC, Smithville Ontario. baileyandtrent2 at yahoo.ca Larry Paterson wrote: It really hurts to admit this, but the silent man from Quebec, Alain Breault, came up with a very good suggestion (I was at his house on Sunday night). I would like to make a page on the littlefatwino website which would simply list, by first name, the people who are on this list and wish to let others know who and where they are. This would only require that you respond to growwine, with your name (and title if wanted), the nearest village, your state/country, and your email address. I will make a chart with one line for each person, and with the @ sign written as " AT " so that web-crawling email harvesters won't pick up your addresses. Ouch this is a good idea, Alain! He suggests that many people on the list are not aware of other people within five miles, and I would agree. Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/0b2556cf/attachment.html From pabls at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 12:05:00 2007 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:05:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Message-ID: <236995.8024.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I think that it's worth remembering too, that 2006 was a challenging ripening season - so cold and wet in September - and that these same Blattner wines might have shown differently given a vintage like this year's. Any red that's half decent from 2006 is an achievement in my opinion, and the slight greenness in the Blattner wines from Viewpointe was minimal to my taste. I think they are quite promising. ----- Original Message ---- From: Terry Rayner To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 11:25:53 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Larry, John Fancsy was kind enough to let us try the HG-01 and HG-03 wines, independent of the Outer Limits tasting. Were contemplating whether to plant either or not. After tasting them we decided not to plant either of them. I'd agree for the most parts with your assessment of HG-01 but HG-03 was still a little unrefined in it's flavours with some definite strong vegetal notes coming through. Possibly some oaking might have helped these wines as both did show a vegetal character. Tannin structure was better then comparable wines, although it did come across as a rather dusty tannin impression. At the Bounty from the County Trade Show in Leamington, Hans also talked about a couple of whites that are being brought along. HG-07 and HG-08 but no further information re parentage. The Blattner crosses may be worth consideration but we are also aware of some research being done at the University of Minnesota Horticultural Research Centre in the area of cold hardy, disease resistant Merlot and Cabernet types that are a few years away yet from being released. They also have Riesling, Gewurz types along the lines of La Crescent and a more neutral Chardonnay type in the pipeline that's yet to be released. Stay tuned on these ones. Terry Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/a8fe5be3/attachment.html From farm at surfglobal.net Sat Dec 1 12:17:56 2007 From: farm at surfglobal.net (PER GARP) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:17:56 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride-vinifera References: <004201c8342f$eab0c620$c622833f@HPTower> <02dc01c83437$bb8c2a30$c224cdd1@mycomputer> Message-ID: <003f01c8343e$1e97a310$e823833f@HPTower> mm post vinifera interesting -it is still a troth. I like it ! Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Ryan To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Gentlemen; We need to have this discussion. I like Steve's explanation. If you look at Hawkins Giant Grape Glossary, you will see that many vinifera species are hybrids. Lets find the right words that we can use. Maybe its as simples as vinifera and "post vinifera". Phil Ryan ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1162 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 9:26 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/e3602e67/attachment.html From redwine at charter.net Sat Dec 1 12:33:27 2007 From: redwine at charter.net (Rob McDowell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:33:27 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <02dc01c83437$bb8c2a30$c224cdd1@mycomputer> Message-ID: By trying to distinguish hybrid from Vinifera one is merely validating the difference. You need to be proactive, not reactive, and work on your own thing. Remember the first Japanese cars? Tinny, little econoboxes laughed Detroit. After 40 years of working on build quality, who's got the market now? Build it and they will come. BTW, the best word I've heard is "Northern" wine grapes with the concepts of "new" wines, "new" traditions, "new" tastes. Remember there's a whole "new" demographic out there. Gotta lose varietal labeling also. The university breeding programs want to promote it for obvious reasons, but recall it was just a marketing ploy to distinguish new world wines back then. Rob -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Phil Ryan Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:32 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Gentlemen; We need to have this discussion. I like Steve's explanation. If you look at Hawkins Giant Grape Glossary, you will see that many vinifera species are hybrids. Lets find the right words that we can use. Maybe its as simples as vinifera and "post vinifera". Phil Ryan ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limit s-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-w ine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1162 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 9:26 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/03f4ca7f/attachment.html From redwine at charter.net Sat Dec 1 12:05:46 2007 From: redwine at charter.net (Rob McDowell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:05:46 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <004201c8342f$eab0c620$c622833f@HPTower> Message-ID: Don't try to convince the "old boys" just let them die of natural causes, it's the kids you're after-they keep making more of them all the time. The economics of trying to compete on a small scale with cheap wine don't figure. The only way to survive is classic business school: cost of capital, property, equipment, materials, labor, overhead, and return is what sets the price of your wine. What's in the bottle and the market you sell it in determines whether you can sell it for that price. So, the choice is to work on either the cost of production or the quality of the wine (or most likely a bit of both). In this economy, aside starting out with a large fortune (making wine from money), there doesn't seem to be any magic answers to the production end-too many mandated (fixed) costs. So to make money from wine it means putting enough quality in the bottle so you can sell it for the price your particular operation demands and your market allows. My observation (not my experience with wine, yet) is that a good product in an adequate market produced by a competent operation will do well. Is it worth the investment, risk, and work? That's what weeds out the the quick buck artist from the wise investor. It is hard and expensive work to grow grapes and make wine, get paid for it. Now, it's noon. At least it's sunny. Rob -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of PER GARP Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:36 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limit s-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-w ine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/7bb46c94/attachment.html From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 1 12:47:38 2007 From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:47:38 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info References: <236995.8024.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: True Paul that '06 was a less than memorable harvest, and having said that I've already seen some good examples of the better known red that looked better then the HG-01 and HG-03. One that impressed me was St Croix. The other thing is that cold hardiness on these varieties has not been established. Hans does have them planted in Harrow on 2 different soil types but that's a more moderated area as well. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info I think that it's worth remembering too, that 2006 was a challenging ripening season - so cold and wet in September - and that these same Blattner wines might have shown differently given a vintage like this year's. Any red that's half decent from 2006 is an achievement in my opinion, and the slight greenness in the Blattner wines from Viewpointe was minimal to my taste. I think they are quite promising. ----- Original Message ---- From: Terry Rayner To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 11:25:53 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Larry, John Fancsy was kind enough to let us try the HG-01 and HG-03 wines, independent of the Outer Limits tasting. Were contemplating whether to plant either or not. After tasting them we decided not to plant either of them. I'd agree for the most parts with your assessment of HG-01 but HG-03 was still a little unrefined in it's flavours with some definite strong vegetal notes coming through. Possibly some oaking might have helped these wines as both did show a vegetal character. Tannin structure was better then comparable wines, although it did come across as a rather dusty tannin impression. At the Bounty from the County Trade Show in Leamington, Hans also talked about a couple of whites that are being brought along. HG-07 and HG-08 but no further information re parentage. The Blattner crosses may be worth consideration but we are also aware of some research being done at the University of Minnesota Horticultural Research Centre in the area of cold hardy, disease resistant Merlot and Cabernet types that are a few years away yet from being released. They also have Riesling, Gewurz types along the lines of La Crescent and a more neutral Chardonnay type in the pipeline that's yet to be released. Stay tuned on these ones. Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/e10534b7/attachment-0001.html From glenda at dccw.ca Sat Dec 1 13:23:26 2007 From: glenda at dccw.ca (Glenda) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:53:26 -0330 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com><007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> Message-ID: <000001c83447$447faec0$0b02a8c0@GLENDATWO> Could you not just come up with a name for your wine without mentioning what grapes are in it? Isn't that what they did with Piat D'Or? I cannot find anywhere what grapes they put in those products, (the red and white styles) but they do sell as French wines and get a lot of shelf space at the liquor stores here. Glenda in Newfoundland _____ From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of PER GARP Sent: December 1, 2007 9:00 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limit s-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-w ine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. _____ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! _____ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _____ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/f63caba4/attachment.html From paul at vivezza.com Sat Dec 1 14:43:03 2007 From: paul at vivezza.com (Paul Troop) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:43:03 -0800 Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info References: <002f01c83129$1b78a250$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C><02b301c831ae$05019740$2502a8c0@IBM56F9D334E88><0F575DBD-E2AD-4A94-951C-0E3DEB085D0E@shaw.ca><9fa601c831c7$25960220$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d><001401c831dd$ad1bc1b0$de22833f@HPTower> <00b301c83414$606214d0$6c22833f@HPTower> Message-ID: Per, The varieties we have in Canada are all grown from legally imported seeds. The EU selections are in many cases from the same crossings, just different siblings. Cab Foch is also in NS but I have not heard back from the grower since the vines were planted. Valentin is in touch with them and I understand they are happy. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul -Thanks Can you explain the differences in your selection in BC compeered to the EU selections, is it the same seed crosses, but not the same selections based on different results ? Is Petite Milo the only type that has been tested in NS ? If additional types have been tested in NS (close to my climate) can you tell us abut the grower experience, particularly with a 0-spray growing methods !!!! Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Troop To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Hi Per, Here's the information you requested about the Blattner vines. I can tell you what I know, but not necessarily all of what you want. Shipping to the USA is impossible. If the material shows up via 'suitcase' in the USA it will create problems for these varieties in the future. I have 5 varieties at the CFIA for virus testing and I will make those available to USA growers when the clearance comes. Overall I have 60 varieties, most of which are numbered. The first few numbers I've listed may be a bit puzzling but there is a story, for another time. #1,2,4,8,9 plus Petite Milo, Cabernet Libre, and Cab Foch are from a first selection of Blattner vines on the west coast of Canada. To the best of my knowledge, all these eight crosses of earlier Blattner Cabernet crosses X various secondary parents, some of which are also Blattner Cabernet crosses. #2, 8, and Petite Milo are white the rest are red. The other 51 varieties are mainly but not entirely, Cabernet crosses, about half white and half red. These are second selection vines, chosen in Ontario in 2002 for disease resistance, early ripening, and commercial production potential. These plants were in 4th leaf this year in my vineyard. None have had any spray of any kind! Small lot winemaking has taken place. By spring time I'll post a full report on what I've learned. For those interested in cuttings or grafted vines there are some available, but ONLY in Canada. Please contact me offlist. What I should be able to ship this year are: Cab Foch Petite Milo Cabernet Libre There is limited material so it will be first come first serve. All wood will be shipped in 3 or 4 bud cuttings depending on internodal lengths and pricing will include a $1 royalty to Mr. Blattner. All plants come with a non propagation/breeding agreement. I have included a small desciption of the three varieties. Cab Foch -- Red There is some confustion about the Blattner vines in particular the Cab Foch vine. There is only one Blattner Cabernet (numbered variety) X Foch cross in Canada I am aware of and it has gone on to be generally called Cab Foch. This is a mid season variety and is quite disease resistant. It is somewhat vigourous. Clusters are on the small side and loose. On the BC west coast it can acheive up to 26 brix in good years and in poor years should make 22 or more. Acids tend to be slightly high and pH low. If grown well in VSP you could achieve up to 4 tons per acre but most would struggle to get more than 2 1/2 tons. To get the best results attention must be given to shoot placement, leaf and fruit sun exposure. This is not a variety for lazy vineyard practises in a marginal area. Valentin Blattner claims it has some phyloxerra tolerance. There is a fair amount of lateral production so trimming is required. Flavours develope fairly early so while longer hang times would be a benefit they are not a necessity. I have not needed to spray fungicide on this variety in our location. Cab Foch wine tends to be very dark, full bodied, with subdued tannins and moderately high alcohol. Flavours show nuances of Cabernet and Foch. Barrel aging is suggested. Blending with more tannic varieties produces complex wines. Cabernet Libre -- Red This vine can produce an good crop, up to 6 tons, of long, almost full clusters, but in most places crops are between 3-4 tons. It has very late bud burst, and is one of the first to veraison. It has shown very good disease resistance to powdery mildew and botrytis. It is has moderate vigour and produces well on its own roots. In cooler situations it may benefit from grafting to 3309, 101-14, Riperia or Swartzmann. The fruit has the flavour of green peas until ripe so care must be taken to allow the fruit to mature. VSP is the preferred trellising system. There is marginal lateral production and it has small Cab like leaves. No fungicide required here. The wine tends to be dark, somewhat tannic, with balanced acids and cassis, cherry and blueberry notes. If an extracted wine is made it could take 2-4 years for release. In some years it can taste much like a Loire Cab Franc. I recommend barrel aging. It is a good choice for a site that is susceptable to a late spring frost. Petite Milo -- white This is one of the earliest varieties in our region. It has early bud burst and early veraison. Petite Milo will ripen reliably, retain acidity and make a range of wines, from a late harvest Riesling style to a delicate floral dry wine. It seems to have done well in the past two Nova Scotia winters. In our region we can easily see 25 Brix with 9 grams of acid by late September although this year it was only about 23 Brix at that time. In Nova Scotia this year it was reported to achieve 23.9 Brix, TA 12.25 pH 3.09. Petite Milo has small tight clusters that require good sun exposure to ripen. For the first time this year we saw botrytis however it happened in a dry spell and that enhanced the wine. The leaves and wood tend to get powdery mildew at the end of the season but I have never seen any on the fruit. It might require one or two sprays of fungicide in locations that do not have good air flow. VSP or Scott Henry would seem to be the trellising choices. The vine performs well own rooted but might show increased fruit production if grafted. We have some grafted Petite Milo coming into second leaf this year so it will be another two seasons before we see if it responds positively to grafting. We have put it on 5 BB to enhance fruit set and delay maturity, as well as 3309. Contact me for more information. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] What do we grow PAUL CAN you tell us abut this "60 varieties of Blattner vines" and perhaps show us somew photos of the best and gratest types. best Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Troop To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [Growwine] What do we grow The idea of sharing info on the varieties grown is excellent. Out here on Salt Spring Island I have 60 varieties of Blattner vines, Pinot Noir, Pinot Gris, Chardonnay, St. Laurent, Foch, Leon Millot, Zweigelt, Regent, New York Muscat. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/0beb0584/attachment.html From syl.helie at globetrotter.net Sat Dec 1 16:32:19 2007 From: syl.helie at globetrotter.net (Sylvain Helie) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:32:19 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Cold climate hybrid nursery in BC??? Message-ID: <00f901c83461$a72019b0$0502a8c0@solenotukni660> Anybody knows if any nursery producing plants of cold climate hyb in BC....a friend is looking for it to grow in Kamloops area..... Sylvain H?lie Clos du Vieux Moulin St-Isidore, QC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/ff9859c6/attachment.html From farm at surfglobal.net Sat Dec 1 18:26:55 2007 From: farm at surfglobal.net (PER GARP) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:26:55 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Northern Wine Grape References: Message-ID: <007d01c83471$aa7bd490$ca22833f@HPTower> yes, perhaps thats even a better sugestion, I don't know abut you but age is comming 40 years, is a long time for us but bearly a time to se what that "Northern wine grape" did produce. thos old "Northern Wine Grape" shore makes a wounderful wine, old vine's $40/bottle taking orders today. Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride By trying to distinguish hybrid from Vinifera one is merely validating the difference. You need to be proactive, not reactive, and work on your own thing. Remember the first Japanese cars? Tinny, little econoboxes laughed Detroit. After 40 years of working on build quality, who's got the market now? Build it and they will come. BTW, the best word I've heard is "Northern" wine grapes with the concepts of "new" wines, "new" traditions, "new" tastes. Remember there's a whole "new" demographic out there. Gotta lose varietal labeling also. The university breeding programs want to promote it for obvious reasons, but recall it was just a marketing ploy to distinguish new world wines back then. Rob -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Phil Ryan Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:32 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Gentlemen; We need to have this discussion. I like Steve's explanation. If you look at Hawkins Giant Grape Glossary, you will see that many vinifera species are hybrids. Lets find the right words that we can use. Maybe its as simples as vinifera and "post vinifera". Phil Ryan ----- Original Message ----- From: PER GARP To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for the perfect gift? 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Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1162 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 9:26 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/4cf7cd6a/attachment.html From farm at surfglobal.net Sat Dec 1 18:36:13 2007 From: farm at surfglobal.net (PER GARP) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:36:13 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Northern post vinifera References: Message-ID: <009b01c83472$f6d37b30$ca22833f@HPTower> Yes, well, I'm don't wish bad things on any one, in this case the old Doc, is old, and very very stiff. We are figuring that profits are perhaps 2 to 3 / bottle, and it cold easy be 6 to 8 and even more, but you can't vine all the battles. Rob, as you state you need to make a profit, one have to eat, and sleep and more. Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Don't try to convince the "old boys" just let them die of natural causes, it's the kids you're after-they keep making more of them all the time. The economics of trying to compete on a small scale with cheap wine don't figure. The only way to survive is classic business school: cost of capital, property, equipment, materials, labor, overhead, and return is what sets the price of your wine. What's in the bottle and the market you sell it in determines whether you can sell it for that price. So, the choice is to work on either the cost of production or the quality of the wine (or most likely a bit of both). In this economy, aside starting out with a large fortune (making wine from money), there doesn't seem to be any magic answers to the production end-too many mandated (fixed) costs. So to make money from wine it means putting enough quality in the bottle so you can sell it for the price your particular operation demands and your market allows. My observation (not my experience with wine, yet) is that a good product in an adequate market produced by a competent operation will do well. Is it worth the investment, risk, and work? That's what weeds out the the quick buck artist from the wise investor. It is hard and expensive work to grow grapes and make wine, get paid for it. Now, it's noon. At least it's sunny. Rob -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of PER GARP Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 10:36 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Yes, I'm also proud of it, but perception don't sell, and yes some do suck and that includes some vinifera that I have pulled as well.! yep, so how do you convince "old Boy's" that been growing this stuff for 30 years, (actually hi is growing less then 1 acres in NH and 4 in MA, and importing 10000 gallons from any one selling) telling consumers, this is ok for a hybrid wine, and thats way its only 7 dollars at a farmers market, but at a liqueur store you pay $ 9.99 - go figure. Next year this maker is probably undercut Valmarts 2.97. 24.1f here in center NH Per ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob McDowell To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride No apologies, Hybrid and proud of it, the proof is in the tasting, if you don't like it, don't drink it, no need to sugarcoat and pander, always promote blind tastings, stop underpricing, local trumps global, use scarcity, avoid overleveraging and needing to cut corners and sell volume, sell honesty and clear eyed humility, terroir is reality, some grapes do suck, blending is music, have fun. Rob McDowell trying to avoid getting to work outside, 15 deg f, 20 kts nw breeze. -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Steve Melchiskey Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:41 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Per, What I say is: "We grow grapes varieties specially bred for wine quality, cold hardiness and early ripening. They were first bred in France (good word for wine lovers) and Quebec (americans think the Quebecois are smart because they left France a long time ago) and in some university breeding programs here in the US (we love our "smart" professors)." I never say "Hybrid". best, steve maine coast vineyards.... On Dec 1, 2007, at 7:29 AM, PER GARP wrote: Larry and all, I can't understand way we all have to refer to our grapes as "HYBRID" Hybrids sound weird for customers to accept, so way are we the growers in need to lower or self to the poor quality that this "HYBRID" name will imply. I don't understand - IT SELF DESTRUCTION !!! GROW GRAPES - GROW GRAPES AND FORGET THE HYBRID'S NEWER SPEAK ABUT A HYBRID, HOW CAN YOU TELL - A HYBRID FROM A GRAPE -WELL ONLY YOU CAN ! YOUR CUSTOMER WILL ALWAYS WELCOME A "NICE GRAPE WINE" BUT WILL ALWAYS WONDER ABUT A "NICE HYBRID WINE" HYBRID ITS A DIRTY WORD - ITS SOILED. WHEN ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY 30 DOLLARS FOR A "HYBRID WINE" MY GRAPES ARE: AN INTRASPECIFIC CROSS OF A NATURALLY GROWING AMERICAN WILD GRAPE AND THE EUROPEAN GRAPE, AND WHAT A COMPLEX DEVELOPMENT THAT IS, IT HAS TAKEN ABUT 2 LIFE TIMES TO GET THIS FAR. HAPPY- HAPPY PER ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul: I tasted these and posted notes online at http://littlefatwino.com/viewpointe.html from the Outer Limits tasting. I do not know which particular varieties were involved, but I do remember that the blend was, to my taste, the best by far. The wines were apparently grown by John Fancsy at Viewpointe and made by Jim Warren of Stoney Ridge fame. Grape guy Michael Pinkus put his thoughts at http://ontheroadwithgrapeguy.blogspot.com:80/2007/07/report-from-outer-limits-of-ontario.html even saying nice things about some Terry Rayner guy, but follow down to best Enigma to see the comments about Blattner (Paul T has left a footprint at the bottom of this page). Paul I seem to remember you posting tasting notes from Outer Limits, including the Blattners, at http://hybridwines.blogspot.com/2007/07/notes-from-outer-limits-of-ontario-wine.html Outer Limits was a fun event, but it will likely be at best a once-every-two-years phenomenon unless someone wants to come up with ways to make it happen... Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bulas To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Blattner vine info Paul, thanks for the info on these fascinating new hybrids. I was lucky enough to try some examples from the Harrow area during the Outer Limits tasting last summer and am extremely impressed with the complexity and tannins in these hybrid reds. Frankly I would ev en go so far as to say that they should be thought of as possibly the premier red wine grapes for those areas "in between" the Lake Erie North Shore and Niagara appellations - true Ontario country wines in other words. I can't wait to see some of their wines made available for consumers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for the perfect gift? 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URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071201/63aa3019/attachment-0001.html From gwenetclaude at globetrotter.net Sun Dec 2 21:02:58 2007 From: gwenetclaude at globetrotter.net (Gwen et Claude) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:02:58 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] where are we all from References: <002f01c83129$1b78a250$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> Message-ID: <026301c83551$00ecc840$6f00a8c0@Bonjour> Hi Larry, Gwen Pratt and Claude Anctil, Baie-Des-Sables, QC gwenetclaude at globetrotter.net I want to tell you that this forum is entertaining and educational for me. There's alot of good humour out there. Could it be the effect of all that good wine? I'm learning alot and getting ready for year 3 with 6 Baltica vines. I am making wines from rosehips, raspberries and dandelions -not all together- at this time. Please don't kick me off the list - but I make my grape wine from a kit. Sincerely, Gwen ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Paterson To: Growwine List Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:09 PM Subject: [Growwine] where are we all from It really hurts to admit this, but the silent man from Quebec, Alain Breault, came up with a very good suggestion (I was at his house on Sunday night). I would like to make a page on the littlefatwino website which would simply list, by first name, the people who are on this list and wish to let others know who and where they are. This would only require that you respond to growwine, with your name (and title if wanted), the nearest village, your state/country, and your email address. I will make a chart with one line for each person, and with the @ sign written as " AT " so that web-crawling email harvesters won't pick up your addresses. Ouch this is a good idea, Alain! He suggests that many people on the list are not aware of other people within five miles, and I would agree. Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ __________ NOD32 2683 (20071124) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine __________ NOD32 2683 (20071124) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20071202/46021ab1/attachment.html From rwdbest at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 2 10:20:52 2007 From: rwdbest at sympatico.ca (Richard Best) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:20:52 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <000001c83447$447faec0$0b02a8c0@GLENDATWO> References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com><007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> <000001c83447$447faec0$0b02a8c0@GLENDATWO> Message-ID: <4752CD54.4070309@sympatico.ca> Glenda wrote: > Could you not just come up with a name for your wine without > mentioning what grapes are in it? Isn?t that what they did with Piat > D?Or? I cannot find anywhere what grapes they put in those products, > (the red and white styles) but they do sell as French wines and get a > lot of shelf space at the liquor stores here. The naming conventions come not from wine people but from plant people. When two plants form the same species (e.g. vinifera) are interbred, the offspring is called a cross. If two labrusca plants are crossed, that too is a cross. When two different species are crossed, e.g. vinifera x labrusca, that is an interspecies cross or hybrid. The problem is that the buying public don't understand. When they see "cabernet" on a label, they understand that. It's gotten to the point that people will buy familiarity over quality most of the time -- what I call "varietalism". Re-education is what's need. The European Union sanctions the term "Interspecific cross". They recognize that the word hybrid has attracted negative connotations. (BTW, if I made a wine such as Piat D'Or, I wouldn't want people to know what was in it either.) Regards, Richard Best - The Frugal Oenophile "Use it up; wear it out; make it last" And please don't leave your vehicle idling. From glenda at dccw.ca Sun Dec 2 13:26:57 2007 From: glenda at dccw.ca (Glenda) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:56:57 -0330 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <4752CD54.4070309@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <9B03BFC2DE0942669556973757195DCB@glendaone> The name Piat D'Or, to my mind was a brilliant choice since people seem to read all sorts of things into it that just aren't there. I don't like the wine but it never fails that I will receive a bottle or 2 of it as a gift from people who know I like French wines and can't seem to remember the words Pinot noir, they figure it's close enough. Very frustrating! I would still love to know what's in it, if it's pure vinifera then we are justified in growing hybrids! Glenda in Newfoundland -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Richard Best Sent: December-02-07 11:51 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Glenda wrote: > Could you not just come up with a name for your wine without > mentioning what grapes are in it? Isn't that what they did with Piat > D'Or? I cannot find anywhere what grapes they put in those products, > (the red and white styles) but they do sell as French wines and get a > lot of shelf space at the liquor stores here. The naming conventions come not from wine people but from plant people. When two plants form the same species (e.g. vinifera) are interbred, the offspring is called a cross. If two labrusca plants are crossed, that too is a cross. When two different species are crossed, e.g. vinifera x labrusca, that is an interspecies cross or hybrid. The problem is that the buying public don't understand. When they see "cabernet" on a label, they understand that. It's gotten to the point that people will buy familiarity over quality most of the time -- what I call "varietalism". Re-education is what's need. The European Union sanctions the term "Interspecific cross". They recognize that the word hybrid has attracted negative connotations. (BTW, if I made a wine such as Piat D'Or, I wouldn't want people to know what was in it either.) Regards, Richard Best - The Frugal Oenophile "Use it up; wear it out; make it last" And please don't leave your vehicle idling. _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From paul at vivezza.com Sun Dec 2 13:32:24 2007 From: paul at vivezza.com (Paul Troop) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:32:24 -0800 Subject: [Growwine] hybride References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com><007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower><000001c83447$447faec0$0b02a8c0@GLENDATWO> <4752CD54.4070309@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> Richard, Of course there is the old argument that any two organisms that can reproduce sexually and create fertile offspring are from the same species. Under that definition most grape 'species' would have to be called subspecies at best and resulting crosses would not be hybrids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Best" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Glenda wrote: > Could you not just come up with a name for your wine without > mentioning what grapes are in it? Isn?t that what they did with Piat > D?Or? I cannot find anywhere what grapes they put in those products, > (the red and white styles) but they do sell as French wines and get a > lot of shelf space at the liquor stores here. The naming conventions come not from wine people but from plant people. When two plants form the same species (e.g. vinifera) are interbred, the offspring is called a cross. If two labrusca plants are crossed, that too is a cross. When two different species are crossed, e.g. vinifera x labrusca, that is an interspecies cross or hybrid. The problem is that the buying public don't understand. When they see "cabernet" on a label, they understand that. It's gotten to the point that people will buy familiarity over quality most of the time -- what I call "varietalism". Re-education is what's need. The European Union sanctions the term "Interspecific cross". They recognize that the word hybrid has attracted negative connotations. (BTW, if I made a wine such as Piat D'Or, I wouldn't want people to know what was in it either.) Regards, Richard Best - The Frugal Oenophile "Use it up; wear it out; make it last" And please don't leave your vehicle idling. _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From rwdbest at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 2 13:45:12 2007 From: rwdbest at sympatico.ca (Richard Best) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:45:12 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com><007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower><000001c83447$447faec0$0b02a8c0@GLENDATWO> <4752CD54.4070309@sympatico.ca> <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> Message-ID: <4752FD38.4090003@sympatico.ca> Paul Troop wrote: > Richard, > > Of course there is the old argument that any two organisms that can > reproduce sexually and create fertile offspring are from the same species. > Under that definition most grape 'species' would have to be called > subspecies at best and resulting crosses would not be hybrids. > Sorry, my mistake. I looked the terms up in a text book. Next time I'll know to use Wiki instead. Regards, Richard Best - The Frugal Oenophile "Use it up; wear it out; make it last" And please don't leave your vehicle idling. From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca Sun Dec 2 13:45:58 2007 From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 13:45:58 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride References: <9B03BFC2DE0942669556973757195DCB@glendaone> Message-ID: <003501c83513$cecb7470$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> Glenda It would be pure vinifera (whatever portion is grape based), as is every bottom-quality kit wine on the market. But there are also good wines made from vinifera, and I've even tasted good French wines! Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenda" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride The name Piat D'Or, to my mind was a brilliant choice since people seem to read all sorts of things into it that just aren't there. I don't like the wine but it never fails that I will receive a bottle or 2 of it as a gift from people who know I like French wines and can't seem to remember the words Pinot noir, they figure it's close enough. Very frustrating! I would still love to know what's in it, if it's pure vinifera then we are justified in growing hybrids! Glenda in Newfoundland -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Richard Best Sent: December-02-07 11:51 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride Glenda wrote: > Could you not just come up with a name for your wine without > mentioning what grapes are in it? Isn't that what they did with Piat > D'Or? I cannot find anywhere what grapes they put in those products, > (the red and white styles) but they do sell as French wines and get a > lot of shelf space at the liquor stores here. The naming conventions come not from wine people but from plant people. When two plants form the same species (e.g. vinifera) are interbred, the offspring is called a cross. If two labrusca plants are crossed, that too is a cross. When two different species are crossed, e.g. vinifera x labrusca, that is an interspecies cross or hybrid. The problem is that the buying public don't understand. When they see "cabernet" on a label, they understand that. It's gotten to the point that people will buy familiarity over quality most of the time -- what I call "varietalism". Re-education is what's need. The European Union sanctions the term "Interspecific cross". They recognize that the word hybrid has attracted negative connotations. (BTW, if I made a wine such as Piat D'Or, I wouldn't want people to know what was in it either.) Regards, Richard Best - The Frugal Oenophile "Use it up; wear it out; make it last" And please don't leave your vehicle idling. _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From derek at pointerstop.ca Sun Dec 2 13:51:35 2007 From: derek at pointerstop.ca (Derek Broughton) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:51:35 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <9B03BFC2DE0942669556973757195DCB@glendaone> References: <9B03BFC2DE0942669556973757195DCB@glendaone> Message-ID: <200712021451.35562.derek@pointerstop.ca> On December 2, 2007 14:26:57 Glenda wrote: > The name Piat D'Or, to my mind was a brilliant choice since people seem to > read all sorts of things into it that just aren't there. I don't like the > wine but it never fails that I will receive a bottle or 2 of it as a gift > from people who know I like French wines and can't seem to remember the > words Pinot noir, they figure it's close enough. Very frustrating! > > I would still love to know what's in it, if it's pure vinifera then we are > justified in growing hybrids! I doubt there is a fixed list of contents. Just like the difference between blended and single-malt whiskies, a "Piat D'Or" is intended to always taste the same, and I expect they'll blend anything to get it there (beats me if it works, because I have to be drunk already to drink it...). I'm not sure that the point isn't moot, though - does the word "hybrid" ever actually show on front labels? Canadian winemakers no doubt make as many wines from hybrids as vinifera, but while it may say the varietal is "Baco Noir" or "Vidal", I don't think that it ever says "Hybrid" except occasionally on the notes on a back label (that are only ever read by people like us, anyway). -- derek From derek at pointerstop.ca Sun Dec 2 14:06:08 2007 From: derek at pointerstop.ca (Derek Broughton) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:06:08 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4752CD54.4070309@sympatico.ca> <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> Message-ID: <200712021506.08970.derek@pointerstop.ca> On December 2, 2007 14:32:24 Paul Troop wrote: > Richard, > > Of course there is the old argument that any two organisms that can > reproduce sexually and create fertile offspring are from the same species. > Under that definition most grape 'species' would have to be called > subspecies at best and resulting crosses would not be hybrids. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species Which goes to show how much you can trust wikipedia :-) (to be fair to wikipedia, the article questions that definition in the third sentence!) That definition worked reasonably well in the times of Mendel and Linnaeus, but fell apart as we learned more about the world. There are "ring-species", where species A can interbreed with species B, and B with C, C with D, D with A - but A can't interbreed with C! Generally, speciation is now considered to involve geographic _or_ genetic separation. Of course, that makes vinifera distinct from North American grapes, but still makes the distinction between riparia and labrusca a little problematic :-) Trying to get two taxonomists to agree on an actual definition of species is harder than getting a French winemaker to agree that they can make good wine in Ontario. -- derek From ryan at darksleep.com Sun Dec 2 14:12:58 2007 From: ryan at darksleep.com (Ryan Daum) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:12:58 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] hybride In-Reply-To: <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> References: <135720.57465.qm@web56813.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <007d01c833d4$a3825490$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> <00c101c83415$d725b7b0$6c22833f@HPTower> <000001c83447$447faec0$0b02a8c0@GLENDATWO> <4752CD54.4070309@sympatico.ca> <006501c83511$b2711250$6401a8c0@acer684c9a655d> Message-ID: <1196622778.7483.7.camel@teak> Here's a question: has anybody ever tried wine made from vitis vinifera sylvestris? That is, wild vinifera (which apparently still grows wild in some riverbanks, etc. in parts of Europe)? Has anybody ever taken wild-picked strains of it and crossed them with "noble" vinifera and had "good" wine as a result? I suspect the answer is "No." I suspect that wild vinifera has about the same quality oenological properties as any randomly selected wild v.riparia. I bet it makes thin, acidic wines. It took 10,000 years (judging by grape pips found in Georgia, likely the oldest wine growing/makign area in the world) to get from v.vinifera sylvestris to Cabernet Sauvignon. Even with modern horticultural knowledge to speed things up we are just at the beginning of breeding the grapes for future wines in our terroir. (In fact, who knows what brilliant wines could await from breeding programs that concentrate on breeding among pure north american strains without hybridizing with vinifera!) Ryan On Sun, 2007-12-02 at 10:32 -0800, Paul Troop wrote: > Richard, > > Of course there is the old argument that any two organisms that can > reproduce sexually and create fertile offspring are from the same species. > Under that definition most grape 'species' would have to be called > subspecies at best and resulting crosses would not be hybrids. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species > > Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Best" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] hybride > > > Glenda wrote: > > Could you not just come up with a name for your wine without > > mentioning what grapes are in it? Isn?t that what they did with Piat > > D?Or? I cannot find anywhere what grapes they put in those products, > > (the red and white styles) but they do sell as French wines and get a > > lot of shelf space at the liquor stores here. > > The naming conventions come not from wine people but from plant people. > When two plants form the same species (e.g. vinifera) are interbred, the > offspring is called a cross. If two labrusca plants are crossed, that > too is a cross. When two different species are crossed, e.g. vinifera x > labrusca, that is an interspecies cross or hybrid. > > The problem is that the buying public don't understand. When they see > "cabernet" on a label, they understand that. It's gotten to the point > that people will buy familiarity over quality most of the time -- what I > call "varietalism". Re-education is what's need. > > The European Union sanctions the term "Interspecific cross". They > recognize that the word hybrid has attracted negative connotations. > > (BTW, if I made a wine such as Piat D'Or, I wouldn't want people to know > what was in it either.) > > > Regards, > Richard Best - The Frugal Oenophile > > "Use it up; wear it out; make it last" > And please don't leave your vehicle idling. > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >