From neyvatter at hurontel.on.ca Tue Apr 1 16:47:07 2008 From: neyvatter at hurontel.on.ca (Ron Neyvatte) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 16:47:07 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] New world wines star in Paris thanks to Internet - washingtonpost.com Message-ID: <47F29F4B.2010307@hurontel.on.ca> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040100736.html?wpisrc=newsletter&wpisrc=newsletter From helbert at idirect.com Wed Apr 2 08:30:23 2008 From: helbert at idirect.com (Burt Dunn) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 08:30:23 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape Message-ID: <000201c894f3$7686ab00$1aa960cf@syspreinstall> Good morning I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html Think Blending Not Varietals -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080402/b28f1928/attachment.html From neyvatter at hurontel.on.ca Wed Apr 2 15:14:07 2008 From: neyvatter at hurontel.on.ca (Ron Neyvatte) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:14:07 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape In-Reply-To: <000201c894f3$7686ab00$1aa960cf@syspreinstall> References: <000201c894f3$7686ab00$1aa960cf@syspreinstall> Message-ID: <47F3DAFF.2090101@hurontel.on.ca> Burt Dunn wrote: > Good morning > I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. > > Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert > > Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a > www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html > > Think Blending Not Varietals > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Growwine mailing list >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > Did Larry give them to you on April 1st? From chateaustripmine at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 15:48:45 2008 From: chateaustripmine at gmail.com (Chateau Stripmine) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:48:45 -0600 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape In-Reply-To: <47F3DAFF.2090101@hurontel.on.ca> Message-ID: Perhaps Caco? http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1006820 > -----Original Message----- > From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com > [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Ron Neyvatte > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:14 PM > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > Subject: Re: [Growwine] cocao grape > > > Burt Dunn wrote: > > > Good morning > > I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. > > > > Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert From md at cantares.on.ca Wed Apr 2 16:07:41 2008 From: md at cantares.on.ca (Michael Dunn) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:07:41 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps Coca??? That would be an interesting wine! At 1:48 PM -0600 4/2/08, Chateau Stripmine wrote: >Perhaps Caco? > >http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1006820 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Ron Neyvatte >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:14 PM >> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] cocao grape >> >> >> Burt Dunn wrote: >> >> > Good morning >> > I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. >> > >> > Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert > >_______________________________________________ >Growwine mailing list >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From cpnapoli at tritel.net Wed Apr 2 17:01:15 2008 From: cpnapoli at tritel.net (Phil Napoli) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:01:15 -0600 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape References: Message-ID: <002701c89504$b0f82780$6501a8c0@Phil> Carl, your postal skills have a glitz. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chateau Stripmine" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] cocao grape > Perhaps Caco? > > http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1006820 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Ron Neyvatte >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:14 PM >> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] cocao grape >> >> >> Burt Dunn wrote: >> >> > Good morning >> > I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. >> > >> > Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.4/1355 - Release Date: 4/1/2008 > 5:37 PM > > From cpnapoli at tritel.net Wed Apr 2 17:03:54 2008 From: cpnapoli at tritel.net (Phil Napoli) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:03:54 -0600 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape References: Message-ID: <004701c89505$0fe155a0$6501a8c0@Phil> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chateau Stripmine" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] cocao grape > Perhaps Caco? > > http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1006820 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Ron Neyvatte >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:14 PM >> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] cocao grape >> >> >> Burt Dunn wrote: >> >> > Good morning >> > I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. >> > >> > Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.4/1355 - Release Date: 4/1/2008 > 5:37 PM > > From ryan at darksleep.com Wed Apr 2 23:24:35 2008 From: ryan at darksleep.com (Ryan Daum) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:24:35 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] De Chaunac in budswell Message-ID: <1207193075.20670.7.camel@teak> Evidence that spring is finally here: http://picasaweb.google.com/ryan.daum/EarlySpring08/photo#s5184849600307373922 Ryan From helbert at idirect.com Wed Apr 2 19:46:38 2008 From: helbert at idirect.com (Burt Dunn) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:46:38 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape or Caco grape References: Message-ID: <000201c89577$7e409e30$879760cf@syspreinstall> Thanks Carl and others Some info I also rec'd CACO (Concord x Catawaba) light red- concord type CACO labrusca x Vinifera hybrid (combining Concord, Moores Early, Muscat-Hamburg)- not fully hardy Any comments please on either of the 2 above Bert Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html Think Blending Not Varietals From: "Chateau Stripmine" Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 3:48 PM > Perhaps Caco? > http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1006820 > >> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Ron Neyvatte >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:14 PM >> Bert Dunn wrote: >> > Good morning >> > I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. >> > Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert From scott.dolson at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 3 08:49:07 2008 From: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca (Scott Dolson) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:49:07 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] cocao grape or Caco grape In-Reply-To: <000201c89577$7e409e30$879760cf@syspreinstall> References: <000201c89577$7e409e30$879760cf@syspreinstall> Message-ID: <47F4D243.8070604@sympatico.ca> CACO: Large clusters of medium to large red fruit. Very sweet high quality grape. Heavy producer even in hot climates. Hardy to around -20 degrees f. Ripens in September. Scott Burt Dunn wrote: > Thanks Carl and others > Some info I also rec'd > CACO (Concord x Catawaba) light red- concord type > > CACO labrusca x Vinifera hybrid (combining Concord, Moores Early, > Muscat-Hamburg)- not fully hardy > > Any comments please on either of the 2 above Bert > > Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a > www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html > Think Blending Not Varietals > > > From: "Chateau Stripmine" > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 3:48 PM > >> Perhaps Caco? >> http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1006820 >> >> >>> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >>> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Ron Neyvatte >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:14 PM >>> Bert Dunn wrote: >>> >>>> Good morning >>>> I Have been given some grape cuttings called COCAO by the sender. >>>> Any info or suggestion appreciated Bert >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/d6b470e6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: scott.dolson.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/d6b470e6/scott.dolson.vcf From lonrom at hevanet.com Thu Apr 3 11:13:35 2008 From: lonrom at hevanet.com (Lon J. Rombough) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:13:35 -0700 Subject: [Growwine] Cold Climate Grape Courses Message-ID: <7d5816a7a96232bfb8f6af528f817455@hevanet.com> Grape Growers to hold meetings The Jamestown Sun Published Wednesday, April 02, 2008 The North Dakota Grape Growers Association will coordinate two meetings in April for education on pruning and care of grape vines in cold climate situations. John Marshall from Great River Vineyard/Nursery in Lake City, Minn., will provide the education. He has more than 30 years of experience in growing cold climate grapes. He is a charter member of the Minnesota Grape Growers Association and is currently the editor for the MGGA newsletter. Marshall and his wife, Barb, own the Great River Vineyard/Nursery and they raise wine and table grapes for commercial sale. They specialize in cold climate varieties. The first meeting is at 9 a.m. Monday in Minot at the North Central Research Extension Center (5400 Highway 83 South). The second meeting will be held Tuesday. The meeting will start at 9:30 a.m. and will be held at the Community Center in downtown Buffalo, N.D. The program for the two days will be as follows: 9 a.m. at Minot (9:30 a.m. at Buffalo): coffee and rolls served, planting grapes will be discussed. Starting at 9:30 a.m. at Minot (10 a.m. at Buffalo), topics to be addressed are training young vines, trellising, pruning (power point presentation) and varieties for cold climates and discussion of potential grape varieties in North Dakota. Lunch is at noon. At 1 p.m. at Burlington, N.D., Pointe of View Winery and Vineyard (1:30 p.m. at Red Trail Vineyard which is southeast of Buffalo), a discussion, training and hands on pruning of grape vines are planned. The Train the Trainer pruning and production classes are free to NDGGA members along with a free lunch at both sites. Members should indicate what meeting they are attending. E-mail rradke at ndsuext.nodak.edu or call Rudy at 701-356-0222. Nonmembers may attend by joining NDGGA. Membership is $20. Register the same way as members (listed above) but a membership form will be sent by mail or e-mail. At www.ndgga.org a member form is available to print. It can then be sent with a check to Rudy Radke, NDGGA, 4838 Rocking Horse Circle, Fargo, ND 58104-6049. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2406 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/764404d4/attachment.bin From aveo2000 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 13:03:15 2008 From: aveo2000 at hotmail.com (ASSOCIATION DES VITICULTEURS DE L'EST ONTARIEN) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:03:15 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] (no subject) Message-ID: The Association des viticulteurs de l'Est ontarien (AVEO) is organizing its 9th information Meeting on Saturday, April 26, 2008, at 10:00 am at Le Domaine du Cervin in Chesterville, On. Information will be given on wine making with hybrid vines, new varieries of vines, on establishing a wine festival and a wine route. There will be a wine tasting and evaluation session of our local wines. The participation for this day is 30$ for members and 40$ for non-members including lunch and wine tasting. Please make your reservations before April 22nd 2005, at clos.baillie at videotron.ca or at 819-827-3220. For more information: http://annuelleaveo.site.voila.fr/ _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/9abca35b/attachment.html From woodburn at uark.edu Thu Apr 3 14:18:14 2008 From: woodburn at uark.edu (Kenda R. Woodburn) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:18:14 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Vineland News Release In-Reply-To: <007d01c8907a$84cfcd40$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> References: <007d01c8907a$84cfcd40$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> Message-ID: Hi All, Oklahoma has a really nice farm to school and direct marketing program set up for many of the crops they produce. Here is a link to the Kerr Center for info on it: http://www.kerrcenter.com/ Arkansas is working on a program. Kenda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/d8983bca/attachment.html From canadavintage at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 13:26:32 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:26:32 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] pruning contracts References: <000201c89577$7e409e30$879760cf@syspreinstall> <47F4D243.8070604@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: Hello, Can anyone share with us what they normally pay on average per vine for pruning? I am looking to subcontract the vineyard work out this year... Ant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/2a120530/attachment.html From pabls at yahoo.com Thu Apr 3 14:25:35 2008 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? Message-ID: <92017.36245.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Anyone know if these newer American hybrids are getting any interest from Ontario growers? It's like there's this massive divide between our two worlds; there are grapes in NY that just never seem to get any press here (in more ways than one, pardon the pun...) I wish Ontario were more open to the new American hybrids. We could have some good material there for new country wines but for whatever reason, action on that front seems nonexistent. Paul __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From mholford at shaw.ca Thu Apr 3 14:41:25 2008 From: mholford at shaw.ca (Mark Holford) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Growwine] pruning contracts In-Reply-To: References: <000201c89577$7e409e30$879760cf@syspreinstall> <47F4D243.8070604@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <008801c895ba$5281e7c0$f785b740$@ca> We spent ~$9K subcontracting out the vineyard work last year - on 3ac. ~3000 plants. That included winter pruning/tying down; summer pruning; and putting up/taking down netting - so our experience was about $3 / vine Mark Holford From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of CanadaVintage Sent: April-03-08 10:27 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: [Growwine] pruning contracts Hello, Can anyone share with us what they normally pay on average per vine for pruning? I am looking to subcontract the vineyard work out this year... Ant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/b81a6e4a/attachment.html From canadavintage at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 17:53:59 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 18:53:59 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] pruning contracts References: <000201c89577$7e409e30$879760cf@syspreinstall><47F4D243.8070604@sympatico.ca> <008801c895ba$5281e7c0$f785b740$@ca> Message-ID: thank-you, Ant On another note: How effective is Matran EC and can it be used in vineyards? ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Holford To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] pruning contracts We spent ~$9K subcontracting out the vineyard work last year - on 3ac. ~3000 plants. That included winter pruning/tying down; summer pruning; and putting up/taking down netting - so our experience was about $3 / vine Mark Holford From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of CanadaVintage Sent: April-03-08 10:27 AM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: [Growwine] pruning contracts Hello, Can anyone share with us what they normally pay on average per vine for pruning? I am looking to subcontract the vineyard work out this year... Ant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080403/7ab75dbe/attachment.html From kett_doit at hotmail.com Thu Apr 3 20:43:42 2008 From: kett_doit at hotmail.com (steven kett) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 00:43:42 +0000 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. Message-ID: I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they can be obtained in Ontario? Thanks _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 3 21:00:38 2008 From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 21:00:38 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. References: Message-ID: The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven kett" To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they can be > obtained in Ontario? > Thanks > > _________________________________________________________________ > If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which > combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! > http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From helbert at idirect.com Fri Apr 4 07:58:11 2008 From: helbert at idirect.com (Burt Dunn) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:58:11 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? References: <92017.36245.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a901c8964e$573f97a0$5839fdcf@syspreinstall> Have had GR7 for 10 + years- Formerly called Abundance and also Rubiana Not sure other 2 have been Ok'd for Canada Bert Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html Think Blending Not Varietals From: "Paul Bulas" To: "Growwine" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 2:25 PM > Anyone know if these newer American hybrids are getting any interest from > Ontario growers? It's like there's this massive divide between our two > worlds; there are grapes in NY that just never seem to get any press here > (in more ways than one, pardon the pun...) > > I wish Ontario were more open to the new American hybrids. We could have > some good material there for new country wines but for whatever reason, > action on that front seems nonexistent. > > Paul From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca Fri Apr 4 08:33:53 2008 From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 08:33:53 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] COVA Meeting Message-ID: <005901c89651$a0393440$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> The Central Ontario Viniculture Association (COVA) will have its annual general meeting on April 27th at Ocala Winery near Port Perry in Ontario (probably 10:30 a.m.) http://littlefatwino.com/cova.html This will be a very important meeting as motions will be made to change bylaws and constitution dramatically to allow a much more aggressive response to market, government and political situations surrounding commercial COVA members. Jim Warren, the head of the Fruit Wineries of Ontario, and the original founder of Stoney Ridge Winery in Niagara, has indicated that he is willing to run for President, replacing Carl Kimmett who has indicated a preference to become Past President. Membership in COVA is $25 per year, and we are actively seeking members from outside our area. Lardy Larry Paterson, as Vice President, COVA http://www.littlefatwino.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080404/1e6f52bf/attachment-0001.html From baileyandtrent2 at yahoo.ca Fri Apr 4 09:05:08 2008 From: baileyandtrent2 at yahoo.ca (melissa lounsbury) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 06:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] COVA Meeting Message-ID: <575773.12192.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Larry. Who do we make our cheque payable to. Maurice. ----- Original Message ---- From: Larry Paterson To: Growwine List Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 8:33:53 AM Subject: [Growwine] COVA Meeting The Central Ontario Viniculture Association (COVA) will have its annual general meeting on April 27th at Ocala Winery near Port Perry in Ontario (probably 10:30 a.m.) http://littlefatwino.com/cova.html This will be a very important meeting as motions will be made to change bylaws and constitution dramatically to allow a much more aggressive response to market, government and political situations surrounding commercial COVA members. Jim Warren, the head of the Fruit Wineries of Ontario, and the original founder of Stoney Ridge Winery in Niagara , has indicated that he is willing to run for President, replacing Carl Kimmett who has indicated a preference to become Past President. Membership in COVA is $25 per year, and we are actively seeking members from outside our area. Lardy Larry Paterson, as Vice President, COVA http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080404/6d02833d/attachment.html From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca Fri Apr 4 09:17:29 2008 From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 09:17:29 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] COVA Meeting References: <575773.12192.qm@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c89657$1d9ba580$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> Maurice Anual dues for 2008 are $25 for any person or business. Please send a cheque made out in the name of treasurer "Liang Liu" for $25.00. The mailing address is 133 Parkdale Ave, Peterborough, Ontario, K9L 1K5. the changes to COVA will probably (if passed) be quite substantive. many thanks Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: melissa lounsbury To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] COVA Meeting Larry. Who do we make our cheque payable to. Maurice. ----- Original Message ---- From: Larry Paterson To: Growwine List Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 8:33:53 AM Subject: [Growwine] COVA Meeting The Central Ontario Viniculture Association (COVA) will have its annual general meeting on April 27th at Ocala Winery near Port Perry in Ontario (probably 10:30 a.m.) http://littlefatwino.com/cova.html This will be a very important meeting as motions will be made to change bylaws and constitution dramatically to allow a much more aggressive response to market, government and political situations surrounding commercial COVA members. Jim Warren, the head of the Fruit Wineries of Ontario, and the original founder of Stoney Ridge Winery in Niagara , has indicated that he is willing to run for President, replacing Carl Kimmett who has indicated a preference to become Past President. Membership in COVA is $25 per year, and we are actively seeking members from outside our area. Lardy Larry Paterson, as Vice President, COVA http://www.littlefatwino.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080404/6993680a/attachment.html From pabls at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 09:44:34 2008 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 06:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? Message-ID: <180305.84740.qm@web56812.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Fascinating! Bert, what is GR7 like compared to the old standbys like Baco and Foch? How would you compare it in terms of vineyard performance and wine type? Enquiring palates wanna know ... Thanks, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Burt Dunn To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 7:58:11 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? Have had GR7 for 10 + years- Formerly called Abundance and also Rubiana Not sure other 2 have been Ok'd for Canada Bert Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html Think Blending Not Varietals From: "Paul Bulas" To: "Growwine" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 2:25 PM > Anyone know if these newer American hybrids are getting any interest from > Ontario growers? It's like there's this massive divide between our two > worlds; there are grapes in NY that just never seem to get any press here > (in more ways than one, pardon the pun...) > > I wish Ontario were more open to the new American hybrids. We could have > some good material there for new country wines but for whatever reason, > action on that front seems nonexistent. > > Paul __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From farm at surfglobal.net Fri Apr 4 14:21:06 2008 From: farm at surfglobal.net (Per Garp) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. References: Message-ID: <003001c89680$a6f232d0$9c22833f@GARPS> Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? Per ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Rayner" To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter > Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell > > Terry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steven kett" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM > Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > >> >> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they can be >> obtained in Ontario? >> Thanks >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which >> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! >> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 15:14:24 2008 From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:14:24 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. In-Reply-To: <003001c89680$a6f232d0$9c22833f@GARPS> Message-ID: Yes, he's operational and is doing some grafting as well. Terry >From: "Per Garp" >Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >To: >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 > >Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? > >I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? > >Per >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Terry Rayner" >To: >Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > > > The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter > > Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell > > > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steven kett" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM > > Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > > > > >> > >> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they can >be > >> obtained in Ontario? > >> Thanks > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which > >> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! > >> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Growwine mailing list > >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com > >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Growwine mailing list > > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > >_______________________________________________ >Growwine mailing list >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From canadavintage at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 14:21:52 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:21:52 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? References: <180305.84740.qm@web56812.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Paul, I grow GR7 and I am a so-so fan of the variety. It tends to grow all over, so it is very vigorous. It also is quite productive and hardy. However, where it kinda falls off favour with us is in the characteristics of the grape. It tends to be on the herbaceous side. Not herbaceous like riperia based vines, but more like a Cabernet Franc type of herbaceous. It is an excellent blender... Anthony Carone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bulas" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? > Fascinating! Bert, what is GR7 like compared to the old standbys like > Baco and Foch? How would you compare it in terms of vineyard performance > and wine type? Enquiring palates wanna know ... > > Thanks, > Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Burt Dunn > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 7:58:11 AM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to > Ontario? > > Have had GR7 for 10 + years- Formerly called Abundance and also Rubiana > Not sure other 2 have been Ok'd for Canada Bert > > Bert Dunn Box 352 Schomberg L0G 1T0 zone 4b/5a > www.littlefatwino.com/bertslist.html > Think Blending Not Varietals > > > From: "Paul Bulas" > To: "Growwine" > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 2:25 PM > >> Anyone know if these newer American hybrids are getting any interest from >> Ontario growers? It's like there's this massive divide between our two >> worlds; there are grapes in NY that just never seem to get any press here >> (in more ways than one, pardon the pun...) >> >> I wish Ontario were more open to the new American hybrids. We could have >> some good material there for new country wines but for whatever reason, >> action on that front seems nonexistent. >> >> Paul > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the > new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at > http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > From pabls at yahoo.com Fri Apr 4 15:23:56 2008 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? Message-ID: <117846.3451.qm@web56812.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Many thanks Anthony. How about the tannins in GR7, are they like Cab Franc's too? ----- Original Message ---- From: CanadaVintage To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 2:21:52 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? Hi Paul, I grow GR7 and I am a so-so fan of the variety. It tends to grow all over, so it is very vigorous. It also is quite productive and hardy. However, where it kinda falls off favour with us is in the characteristics of the grape. It tends to be on the herbaceous side. Not herbaceous like riperia based vines, but more like a Cabernet Franc type of herbaceous. It is an excellent blender... Anthony Carone __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From glenda at dccw.ca Fri Apr 4 15:24:04 2008 From: glenda at dccw.ca (Glenda Baker) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:54:04 -0230 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. In-Reply-To: References: <003001c89680$a6f232d0$9c22833f@GARPS> Message-ID: <002701c89689$72345f60$569d1e20$@ca> In the latest Canadian Grapes to Wine there is an advertisement for Grape Vine Sales and they specialize in Blattner varieties. They have a website www.grapevinesales.com Glenda -----Original Message----- From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Terry Rayner Sent: April 4, 2008 4:44 PM To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. Yes, he's operational and is doing some grafting as well. Terry >From: "Per Garp" >Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >To: >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 > >Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? > >I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? > >Per >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Terry Rayner" >To: >Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > > > The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter > > Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell > > > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steven kett" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM > > Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > > > > >> > >> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they can >be > >> obtained in Ontario? > >> Thanks > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which > >> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! > >> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Growwine mailing list > >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com > >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Growwine mailing list > > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > >_______________________________________________ >Growwine mailing list >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From canadavintage at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 14:28:57 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:28:57 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? References: <117846.3451.qm@web56812.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yes. Very dominate. If the veriety were controllable in the vineyard, we would grow more of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bulas" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? > Many thanks Anthony. How about the tannins in GR7, are they like Cab > Franc's too? > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: CanadaVintage > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 2:21:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to > Ontario? > > Hi Paul, > I grow GR7 and I am a so-so fan of the variety. It tends to grow all > over, > so it is very vigorous. It also is quite productive and hardy. However, > where it kinda falls off favour with us is in the characteristics of the > grape. It tends to be on the herbaceous side. Not herbaceous like riperia > based vines, but more like a Cabernet Franc type of herbaceous. > > It is an excellent blender... > > Anthony Carone > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the > boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to > New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 4 15:28:35 2008 From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. In-Reply-To: <002701c89689$72345f60$569d1e20$@ca> Message-ID: Grape vine sales in the partnership that Paul Troop has on the west coast, although I think Paul and Hans are in contact re the Blattner varieties. Terry >From: "Glenda Baker" >Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >To: >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:54:04 -0230 > >In the latest Canadian Grapes to Wine there is an advertisement for Grape >Vine Sales and they specialize in Blattner varieties. > >They have a website www.grapevinesales.com > >Glenda > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >[mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Terry Rayner >Sent: April 4, 2008 4:44 PM >To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > >Yes, he's operational and is doing some grafting as well. > >Terry > > > >From: "Per Garp" > >Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 > > > >Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? > > > >I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? > > > >Per > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Terry Rayner" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM > >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > > > > > > The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter > > > Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell > > > > > > Terry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "steven kett" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM > > > Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they >can > >be > > >> obtained in Ontario? > > >> Thanks > > >> > > >> _________________________________________________________________ > > >> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game >which > > >> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! > > >> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Growwine mailing list > > >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com > > >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Growwine mailing list > > > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > > > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Growwine mailing list > >Growwine at littlefatwino.com > >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > >_______________________________________________ >Growwine mailing list >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >_______________________________________________ >Growwine mailing list >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From paul at vivezza.com Fri Apr 4 15:52:28 2008 From: paul at vivezza.com (Paul Troop) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:52:28 -0700 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. In-Reply-To: <002701c89689$72345f60$569d1e20$@ca> References: <003001c89680$a6f232d0$9c22833f@GARPS> <002701c89689$72345f60$569d1e20$@ca> Message-ID: <4C20BC1C-D6E2-4AE5-8E37-CA7C40CECE36@vivezza.com> Grapevine Sales is one arm of my company in BC -- for those that have previously contacted me. Paul Troop Blattner Vine Research. On 4-Apr-08, at 12:24 PM, Glenda Baker wrote: > In the latest Canadian Grapes to Wine there is an advertisement for > Grape > Vine Sales and they specialize in Blattner varieties. > > They have a website www.grapevinesales.com > > Glenda > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com > [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Terry Rayner > Sent: April 4, 2008 4:44 PM > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com > Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > > Yes, he's operational and is doing some grafting as well. > > Terry > > >> From: "Per Garp" >> Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 >> >> Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? >> >> I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? >> >> Per >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Terry Rayner" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> >> >>> The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter >>> Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell >>> >>> Terry >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "steven kett" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM >>> Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where >>>> they can >> be >>>> obtained in Ontario? >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game >>>> which >>>> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! >>>> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Growwine mailing list >>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Growwine mailing list >>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From farm at surfglobal.net Fri Apr 4 15:53:58 2008 From: farm at surfglobal.net (Per Garp) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 15:53:58 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. References: Message-ID: <004101c8968d$a086e7d0$ed23833f@GARPS> I have understood that partnership is having its issues, but what do I know? I'm only interested in the good stuff. Thanks Per ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Rayner" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. > Grape vine sales in the partnership that Paul Troop has on the west coast, > although I think Paul and Hans are in contact re the Blattner varieties. > > Terry > > >>From: "Glenda Baker" >>Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >>To: >>Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >>Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:54:04 -0230 >> >>In the latest Canadian Grapes to Wine there is an advertisement for Grape >>Vine Sales and they specialize in Blattner varieties. >> >>They have a website www.grapevinesales.com >> >>Glenda >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >>[mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Terry Rayner >>Sent: April 4, 2008 4:44 PM >>To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >>Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> >>Yes, he's operational and is doing some grafting as well. >> >>Terry >> >> >> >From: "Per Garp" >> >Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> >To: >> >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 >> > >> >Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? >> > >> >I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? >> > >> >Per >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Terry Rayner" >> >To: >> >Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM >> >Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> > >> > >> > > The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans Peter >> > > Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell >> > > >> > > Terry >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "steven kett" >> > > To: >> > > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM >> > > Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > >> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they >>can >> >be >> > >> obtained in Ontario? >> > >> Thanks >> > >> >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > >> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game >>which >> > >> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! >> > >> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Growwine mailing list >> > >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> > >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Growwine mailing list >> > > Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> > > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Growwine mailing list >> >Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> >http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Growwine mailing list >>Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>_______________________________________________ >>Growwine mailing list >>Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From paul at vivezza.com Fri Apr 4 15:55:28 2008 From: paul at vivezza.com (Paul Troop) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hans Peter and I cooperate. The original Blattner block in Canada was established in Harrow at Euro's vineyard that was/is run by Hans Peter. My block of Blattner material in BC was selected by Valentin Blattner, Hans Peter, and myself in the early fall of 2002. Additionally I have 10 other Blattner selections that were selected for BC in 1998 by Valentin Blattner and Hans Peter. Paul Troop Blattner Vine Research On 4-Apr-08, at 12:28 PM, Terry Rayner wrote: > Grape vine sales in the partnership that Paul Troop has on the west > coast, > although I think Paul and Hans are in contact re the Blattner > varieties. > > Terry > > >> From: "Glenda Baker" >> Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:54:04 -0230 >> >> In the latest Canadian Grapes to Wine there is an advertisement for >> Grape >> Vine Sales and they specialize in Blattner varieties. >> >> They have a website www.grapevinesales.com >> >> Glenda >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com >> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Terry Rayner >> Sent: April 4, 2008 4:44 PM >> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >> >> Yes, he's operational and is doing some grafting as well. >> >> Terry >> >> >>> From: "Per Garp" >>> Reply-To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> To: >>> Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >>> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:21:06 -0400 >>> >>> Pfeifer have the VB-stuff ?? >>> >>> I was under the belive that this nursery was not operational ? >>> >>> Per >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Terry Rayner" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:00 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >>> >>> >>>> The only source that I know of is from Harrow, ON through Hans >>>> Peter >>>> Pfeifer. hppf at mnsi.net 519-792-3638 cell >>>> >>>> Terry >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "steven kett" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:43 PM >>>> Subject: [Growwine] I am interested in the Blattner varieties.. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am interested in the Valentino Blattner varieties and where they >> can >>> be >>>>> obtained in Ontario? >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game >> which >>>>> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! >>>>> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Growwine mailing list >>>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Growwine mailing list >>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Growwine mailing list >>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From farm at surfglobal.net Fri Apr 4 16:04:06 2008 From: farm at surfglobal.net (Per Garp) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:04:06 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? References: <117846.3451.qm@web56812.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005301c8968f$0a966fa0$ed23833f@GARPS> What size clusters and grapes are you getting and at what brix, is it late or early maturing ??????? I have some seeds from a Servengii x gr7 cross, and are attempting to figure what potential it possibly can have. Per ----- Original Message ----- From: "CanadaVintage" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 2:28 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? > yes. Very dominate. > If the veriety were controllable in the vineyard, we would grow more of > it. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Bulas" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to > Ontario? > > >> Many thanks Anthony. How about the tannins in GR7, are they like Cab >> Franc's too? >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: CanadaVintage >> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >> Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 2:21:52 PM >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to >> Ontario? >> >> Hi Paul, >> I grow GR7 and I am a so-so fan of the variety. It tends to grow all >> over, >> so it is very vigorous. It also is quite productive and hardy. However, >> where it kinda falls off favour with us is in the characteristics of the >> grape. It tends to be on the herbaceous side. Not herbaceous like riperia >> based vines, but more like a Cabernet Franc type of herbaceous. >> >> It is an excellent blender... >> >> Anthony Carone >> >> >> __________________________________________________________________ >> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the >> boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch >> to >> New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From canadavintage at hotmail.com Fri Apr 4 16:14:54 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:14:54 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? References: <117846.3451.qm@web56812.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <005301c8968f$0a966fa0$ed23833f@GARPS> Message-ID: Medium to small clusters. Sort of looks like St. Croix. Large leave, we sometimes needs to remove to expose clusters. It ripens at the same time as our Regent, which is last week of September-1st week of October for our region (4b-5a) May require additional heat units. It produces larger clusters than its parent, Baco. Loose not tight. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Per Garp" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to Ontario? > What size clusters and grapes are you getting and at what brix, is it late > or early maturing ??????? > > I have some seeds from a Servengii x gr7 cross, and are attempting to > figure > what potential it possibly can have. > > Per > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "CanadaVintage" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 2:28 PM > Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to > Ontario? > > >> yes. Very dominate. >> If the veriety were controllable in the vineyard, we would grow more of >> it. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Paul Bulas" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:23 PM >> Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat,Noiret - are they coming to >> Ontario? >> >> >>> Many thanks Anthony. How about the tannins in GR7, are they like Cab >>> Franc's too? >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: CanadaVintage >>> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> Sent: Friday, April 4, 2008 2:21:52 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Growwine] GR7, Valvin Muscat, Noiret - are they coming to >>> Ontario? >>> >>> Hi Paul, >>> I grow GR7 and I am a so-so fan of the variety. It tends to grow all >>> over, >>> so it is very vigorous. It also is quite productive and hardy. >>> However, >>> where it kinda falls off favour with us is in the characteristics of the >>> grape. It tends to be on the herbaceous side. Not herbaceous like >>> riperia >>> based vines, but more like a Cabernet Franc type of herbaceous. >>> >>> It is an excellent blender... >>> >>> Anthony Carone >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>> Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email >>> the >>> boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch >>> to >>> New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Growwine mailing list >>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > From pabls at yahoo.com Sat Apr 5 17:47:50 2008 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 14:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] One writer's rhapsody over Marquette Message-ID: <942530.79254.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I had great pleasure reading this post, although I take issue with the criticism of Foch and Dechaunac: maybe they make thin and acidic or "muddy" wines in the Midwest, but that can't be said of them in Ontario for example - Foch especially makes beautiful, inky acid-defined reds here. That's besides the point, though. I'm glad to see Marquette getting good press. http://www.richardleahy.com/blog/2008/02/21/breaking-news-new-grape-revolutionizes-red-wine-potential-in-cold-climates/ __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080405/0d9fecec/attachment.html From midmp at abacom.com Sun Apr 6 11:27:00 2008 From: midmp at abacom.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_Par=E9?=) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 07:27:00 -0800 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook Message-ID: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com> Hi ! snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south of the st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent (good under straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other than snow, is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in the backyard. got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the patio. again, life is good. martin sherbrooke, qc 4b / 950 DD From midmp at abacom.com Sun Apr 6 11:27:01 2008 From: midmp at abacom.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_Par=E9?=) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 07:27:01 -0800 Subject: [Growwine] One writer's rhapsody over Marquette In-Reply-To: <942530.79254.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <942530.79254.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47F87B45.2241.23D92DE9@midmp.abacom.com> On the foch et al. since the wine outlet opened at the farmer's market in sherbrooke, I had a chance to revisit some neglected stuff. I think wineries are now reaping the benefits of older vines and experience in the cellar. life is good. older hybrids/old vines on one side of the industry, newer promising hybrids on the other. martin On 5 Apr 2008 at 14:47, Paul Bulas wrote: > > I had great pleasure reading this post, although I take issue with the criticism of Foch and > Dechaunac: maybe they make thin and acidic or "muddy" wines in the Midwest, but that can't be > said of them in Ontario for example - Foch especially makes beautiful, inky acid-defined reds > here. That's besides the point, though. I'm glad to see Marquette getting good press. > > http://www.richardleahy.com/blog/2008/02/21/breaking-news-new-grape-revolutionizes-red-wine- > potential-in-cold-climates/ > > > > > > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your > favourite sites. Download it now! From canadavintage at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 06:54:25 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:54:25 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] One writer's rhapsody over Marquette References: <942530.79254.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47F87B45.2241.23D92DE9@midmp.abacom.com> Message-ID: We are still under at least 4 to 5 ft of snow. It's going to require an act of God to get this spring back on course for many regions in Quebec. In the last ten years, I have never started pruning later than the second week of April. Hopefully, we can still stay on schedule, but it sure does not look like it so far. Anthony Carone ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Par?" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Growwine] One writer's rhapsody over Marquette > On the foch et al. > > since the wine outlet opened at the farmer's market in sherbrooke, I had a > chance to revisit some neglected stuff. > > I think wineries are now reaping the benefits of older vines and > experience in > the cellar. > > life is good. older hybrids/old vines on one side of the industry, newer > promising hybrids on the other. > > martin > > On 5 Apr 2008 at 14:47, Paul Bulas wrote: > >> >> I had great pleasure reading this post, although I take issue with the >> criticism of Foch and >> Dechaunac: maybe they make thin and acidic or "muddy" wines in the >> Midwest, but that can't be >> said of them in Ontario for example - Foch especially makes beautiful, >> inky acid-defined reds >> here. That's besides the point, though. I'm glad to see Marquette getting >> good press. >> >> http://www.richardleahy.com/blog/2008/02/21/breaking-news-new-grape-revolutionizes-red-wine- >> potential-in-cold-climates/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and bookmark your >> favourite sites. Download it now! > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > From canadavintage at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 07:12:14 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:12:14 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] this is a must see for all you winemakers out there References: <942530.79254.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47F87B45.2241.23D92DE9@midmp.abacom.com> Message-ID: Bottle Shock 2008 Movie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYs0kblXToA From vnefv at brant.net Sun Apr 6 08:55:46 2008 From: vnefv at brant.net (Phil Ryan) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:55:46 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook References: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com> Message-ID: <013101c897e5$8c4c6160$8324cdd1@mycomputer> Hi Martin; I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? fingers crossed Phil Ryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Par?" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook > Hi ! > > snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south of the > st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? > > Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. > looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent (good > under > straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. > > the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other than > snow, > is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) > > can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in the > backyard. > got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the patio. > > again, life is good. > > martin > sherbrooke, qc > 4b / 950 DD > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: 4/5/2008 > 7:53 AM > > From markhart at hardygrapes.com Sun Apr 6 09:15:59 2008 From: markhart at hardygrapes.com (Mark Hart) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 08:15:59 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook In-Reply-To: <013101c897e5$8c4c6160$8324cdd1@mycomputer> References: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com> <013101c897e5$8c4c6160$8324cdd1@mycomputer> Message-ID: <89E610CD-3B84-484F-8B19-8491F50A673D@hardygrapes.com> Phil, Based on the performance over 12 years here in northern Wisconsin, I can tell you that -30C is not very good for Regent. All the primary buds would be toasted, you might get some secondary budbreak, but that is getting close to cane killing temps for Regent. It is slightly more hardy than a hardy red vinifera, such as Cab Franc; so -27C +/- is the range for Regent. Mark Hart On Apr 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Phil Ryan wrote: > Hi Martin; > I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. > > Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? > fingers > crossed > Phil Ryan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Par?" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM > Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook > > >> Hi ! >> >> snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south >> of the >> st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? >> >> Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. >> looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent (good >> under >> straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. >> >> the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other >> than >> snow, >> is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) >> >> can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in >> the >> backyard. >> got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the >> patio. >> >> again, life is good. >> >> martin >> sherbrooke, qc >> 4b / 950 DD >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: >> 4/5/2008 >> 7:53 AM >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From canadavintage at hotmail.com Sun Apr 6 08:59:52 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 09:59:52 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook References: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com><013101c897e5$8c4c6160$8324cdd1@mycomputer> <89E610CD-3B84-484F-8B19-8491F50A673D@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: That -30C was a freak occurence in Quebec this winter. The temp. dropped suddenly on the evening of the 28 and 29 of Feb. for a brief 24 hour period. Afterwards, the temperature rose to an average of -20C for most of the winter. Not sure if an exposure to 24H of extreme cold would kill Regent, but I am sure of the vines underneath snow should be fine.??? In any case, I won't be able to make an assessment for at least a week or two with all this !@$#!$ snow on the ground. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Hart" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook Phil, Based on the performance over 12 years here in northern Wisconsin, I can tell you that -30C is not very good for Regent. All the primary buds would be toasted, you might get some secondary budbreak, but that is getting close to cane killing temps for Regent. It is slightly more hardy than a hardy red vinifera, such as Cab Franc; so -27C +/- is the range for Regent. Mark Hart On Apr 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Phil Ryan wrote: > Hi Martin; > I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. > > Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? > fingers > crossed > Phil Ryan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Par?" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM > Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook > > >> Hi ! >> >> snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south >> of the >> st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? >> >> Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. >> looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent (good >> under >> straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. >> >> the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other >> than >> snow, >> is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) >> >> can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in >> the >> backyard. >> got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the >> patio. >> >> again, life is good. >> >> martin >> sherbrooke, qc >> 4b / 950 DD >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: >> 4/5/2008 >> 7:53 AM >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From mauro at ridgepointwines.com Sun Apr 6 10:15:42 2008 From: mauro at ridgepointwines.com (mauro@ridgepointwines.com) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:15:42 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook In-Reply-To: <89E610CD-3B84-484F-8B19-8491F50A673D@hardygrapes.com> References: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com> <89E610CD-3B84-484F-8B19-8491F50A673D@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: <20080406101542.bzks1kd40kw8ow8c@www.webmail.easyhosting.com> I never experieced any vinifera surviving close to -27. I get neverous at any temperatures falling below - 17 18 in the Niagara Peninsula Quoting Mark Hart : > Phil, > > Based on the performance over 12 years here in northern Wisconsin, I > can tell you that -30C is not very good for Regent. All the primary > buds would be toasted, you might get some secondary budbreak, but that > is getting close to cane killing temps for Regent. It is slightly > more hardy than a hardy red vinifera, such as Cab Franc; so -27C +/- > is the range for Regent. > > Mark Hart > > On Apr 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Phil Ryan wrote: > >> Hi Martin; >> I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. >> >> Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? >> fingers >> crossed >> Phil Ryan >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martin Par?" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM >> Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook >> >> >>> Hi ! >>> >>> snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south >>> of the >>> st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? >>> >>> Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. >>> looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent (good >>> under >>> straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. >>> >>> the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other >>> than >>> snow, >>> is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) >>> >>> can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in >>> the >>> backyard. >>> got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the >>> patio. >>> >>> again, life is good. >>> >>> martin >>> sherbrooke, qc >>> 4b / 950 DD >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Growwine mailing list >>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG. >>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: >>> 4/5/2008 >>> 7:53 AM >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > Mauro Scarsellone Ridgepoint Wines 3900 Cherry Avenue Vineland, ON L0R 2C0 From pabls at yahoo.com Sun Apr 6 10:24:57 2008 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 07:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] Offsetting vinifera bud loss Message-ID: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Actually, Mauro's reply leads to an interesting question: I wonder if any wineries in Niagara, yes, even in Niagara, would consider planting something like Marquette, if only to once and for all offset the gnawing problem of occasional crop loss when temps go down really low - or, is vinifera name recognition so important to the commercial success of Niagara wines that even if Marquette made exceptional red wine in Niagara the grape would remain unconsidered? There's probably no one correct answer here: what any winery chooses would reflect the philosophy of its owner(s). But it's interesting to think about :D Frankly I would love to see Marquette considered as material for new startup wineries in places that currently don't see any such action - e.g. Ontario's "West Coast" (Hwy. 21 along Lake Huron - Grand Bend area), along Hwy. 400, etc. ----- Original Message ---- From: "mauro at ridgepointwines.com" To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 10:15:42 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook I never experieced any vinifera surviving close to -27. I get neverous at any temperatures falling below - 17 18 in the Niagara Peninsula __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080406/6c8b1719/attachment.html From markhart at hardygrapes.com Sun Apr 6 10:33:49 2008 From: markhart at hardygrapes.com (Mark Hart) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 09:33:49 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook In-Reply-To: <20080406101542.bzks1kd40kw8ow8c@www.webmail.easyhosting.com> References: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com> <89E610CD-3B84-484F-8B19-8491F50A673D@hardygrapes.com> <20080406101542.bzks1kd40kw8ow8c@www.webmail.easyhosting.com> Message-ID: <1AE62ADF-BB75-4092-B3AF-AA25E1EDA517@hardygrapes.com> The hardiest vinifera (Riesling, Cab Franc, etc.) survive about -25 here - if it is a mid-winter, fully dormant vine, freeze. If you are in a place that gets warm spells during the winter, you will get more yo-yo'ing in vine hardiness, and never reach that deepest dormancy - we don't get winter thaws here. So Regent at -27 is 2 or 3C degrees hardier than the hardiest vinifera, in the conditions at my location. For Phil, under that snow, there will be no problem. That is what I do with my small number of Regent, drop them to the ground and let the snow cover them. I usually leave a few trunks or canes up to see what happens to them unprotected. Mark Hart On Apr 6, 2008, at 9:15 AM, mauro at ridgepointwines.com wrote: > I never experieced any vinifera surviving close to -27. > > I get neverous at any temperatures falling below - 17 18 in the > Niagara > Peninsula > > > > > Quoting Mark Hart : > >> Phil, >> >> Based on the performance over 12 years here in northern Wisconsin, I >> can tell you that -30C is not very good for Regent. All the primary >> buds would be toasted, you might get some secondary budbreak, but >> that >> is getting close to cane killing temps for Regent. It is slightly >> more hardy than a hardy red vinifera, such as Cab Franc; so -27C +/- >> is the range for Regent. >> >> Mark Hart >> >> On Apr 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Phil Ryan wrote: >> >>> Hi Martin; >>> I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. >>> >>> Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? >>> fingers >>> crossed >>> Phil Ryan >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Martin Par?" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM >>> Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook >>> >>> >>>> Hi ! >>>> >>>> snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south >>>> of the >>>> st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? >>>> >>>> Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. >>>> looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent >>>> (good >>>> under >>>> straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. >>>> >>>> the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other >>>> than >>>> snow, >>>> is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) >>>> >>>> can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in >>>> the >>>> backyard. >>>> got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the >>>> patio. >>>> >>>> again, life is good. >>>> >>>> martin >>>> sherbrooke, qc >>>> 4b / 950 DD >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Growwine mailing list >>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG. >>>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: >>>> 4/5/2008 >>>> 7:53 AM >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Growwine mailing list >>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >> >> > > > > Mauro Scarsellone > Ridgepoint Wines > 3900 Cherry Avenue > Vineland, ON > L0R 2C0 > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From markhart at hardygrapes.com Sun Apr 6 10:39:10 2008 From: markhart at hardygrapes.com (Mark Hart) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 09:39:10 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Offsetting vinifera bud loss In-Reply-To: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FBA82BC-ECEB-4738-98EF-41DD9B33DB62@hardygrapes.com> VQA was structured purposefully to prevent that type of innovation and industry improvement. In the 1930's France locked themselves into status quo of 1900, and the thriving profitability of the French viticulture is a testament to such foresight. Remember, protect the consumer - they are idiots if left to their own opinions. Mark Hart On Apr 6, 2008, at 9:24 AM, Paul Bulas wrote: > Actually, Mauro's reply leads to an interesting question: I wonder > if any wineries in Niagara, yes, even in Niagara, would consider > planting something like Marquette, if only to once and for all > offset the gnawing problem of occasional crop loss when temps go > down really low - or, is vinifera name recognition so important to > the commercial success of Niagara wines that even if Marquette made > exceptional red wine in Niagara the grape would remain unconsidered? > > > There's probably no one correct answer here: what any winery chooses > would reflect the philosophy of its owner(s). But it's interesting > to think about :D > > > Frankly I would love to see Marquette considered as material for new > startup wineries in places that currently don't see any such action > - e.g. Ontario's "West Coast" (Hwy. 21 along Lake Huron - Grand Bend > area), along Hwy. 400, etc. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080406/21ae677a/attachment.html From vnefv at brant.net Sun Apr 6 12:35:01 2008 From: vnefv at brant.net (Phil Ryan) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 12:35:01 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook References: <47F87B44.17366.23D92B87@midmp.abacom.com><89E610CD-3B84-484F-8B19-8491F50A673D@hardygrapes.com><20080406101542.bzks1kd40kw8ow8c@www.webmail.easyhosting.com> <1AE62ADF-BB75-4092-B3AF-AA25E1EDA517@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: <017c01c89804$2cbd6540$8324cdd1@mycomputer> Hi Mark; Thanks for this and your earlier comment. Most of my vinifera don't have permanent trunks, and I laid down shoots like that over the fall and early winter. Unfortunately our snow is usually only temporary, so thay get exposed. I'm thinking about laying them down and hilling over them or dropping mulch on them. This winter was very mild for us and buds look great. I think the coldest was -18C. Phil Ryan Simcoe, Ont. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Hart" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook > The hardiest vinifera (Riesling, Cab Franc, etc.) survive about -25 > here - if it is a mid-winter, fully dormant vine, freeze. If you are > in a place that gets warm spells during the winter, you will get more > yo-yo'ing in vine hardiness, and never reach that deepest dormancy - > we don't get winter thaws here. So Regent at -27 is 2 or 3C degrees > hardier than the hardiest vinifera, in the conditions at my location. > > For Phil, under that snow, there will be no problem. That is what I do > with my small number of Regent, drop them to the ground and let the > snow cover them. I usually leave a few trunks or canes up to see what > happens to them unprotected. > > Mark Hart > > On Apr 6, 2008, at 9:15 AM, mauro at ridgepointwines.com wrote: > >> I never experieced any vinifera surviving close to -27. >> >> I get neverous at any temperatures falling below - 17 18 in the >> Niagara >> Peninsula >> >> >> >> >> Quoting Mark Hart : >> >>> Phil, >>> >>> Based on the performance over 12 years here in northern Wisconsin, I >>> can tell you that -30C is not very good for Regent. All the primary >>> buds would be toasted, you might get some secondary budbreak, but >>> that >>> is getting close to cane killing temps for Regent. It is slightly >>> more hardy than a hardy red vinifera, such as Cab Franc; so -27C +/- >>> is the range for Regent. >>> >>> Mark Hart >>> >>> On Apr 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Phil Ryan wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Martin; >>>> I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. >>>> >>>> Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? >>>> fingers >>>> crossed >>>> Phil Ryan >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Martin Par?" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM >>>> Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi ! >>>>> >>>>> snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south >>>>> of the >>>>> st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? >>>>> >>>>> Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. >>>>> looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent >>>>> (good >>>>> under >>>>> straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. >>>>> >>>>> the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other >>>>> than >>>>> snow, >>>>> is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) >>>>> >>>>> can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in >>>>> the >>>>> backyard. >>>>> got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the >>>>> patio. >>>>> >>>>> again, life is good. >>>>> >>>>> martin >>>>> sherbrooke, qc >>>>> 4b / 950 DD >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Growwine mailing list >>>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG. >>>>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: >>>>> 4/5/2008 >>>>> 7:53 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Growwine mailing list >>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Growwine mailing list >>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine >>> >>> >> >> >> >> Mauro Scarsellone >> Ridgepoint Wines >> 3900 Cherry Avenue >> Vineland, ON >> L0R 2C0 >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: 4/5/2008 > 7:53 AM > > From midmp at abacom.com Sun Apr 6 21:48:27 2008 From: midmp at abacom.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_Par=E9?=) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:48:27 -0800 Subject: [Growwine] (Transf.) Re: Spring 08 outlook Message-ID: <47F90CEB.6786.26278143@midmp.abacom.com> in case there are other regent-curious lurking ------- Le message transf?r? suit ------- De : Martin Par? A : "Phil Ryan" Objet : Re: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook R?pondre ? : midmp at abacom.com Envoy? le : Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:24:40 -0800 hi phil, I have not, and I do not expect to find green buds above straw mulch. Regent is not hardy in my cold eastern townships ( -29/30C is no freak event 'round here), snow cover is so-so and thus, except for one winter, have always layed straw to protect it. Also, wood maturity is late, so buds further on canes may not be fully hardy. I only have 5 test vines (hesitation due to the late wood maturity) in Compton but am going to increase it. Martin PS even in St-Paul d'Abbotsford, it is hilled with dirt. PPS just looked up 2007-8 winter records: minus 30C once, but a few occurences of daily low in the minus 25-28 range. gotta like the townships... On 6 Apr 2008 at 8:55, Phil Ryan wrote: > Hi Martin; > I'm curious about the bud survival at -30 for Regent. > > Great bud survival here in Simcoe, Ont. Perhaps a crop of Merlot? fingers > crossed > Phil Ryan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Par?" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 11:27 AM > Subject: [Growwine] Spring 08 outlook > > > > Hi ! > > > > snow's melting and pretty much gone in many fields(at least south of the > > st.lawrence) . how did vines get through the winter ? > > > > Did a quick visit this past thursday in compton. > > looks good for survival, the weakling being as expected, regent (good > > under > > straw / poor above). Somerset is good above the straw. > > > > the rest(PS, LS, brianna, DM, 517, 10-18-xx), no protection other than > > snow, > > is good too. low this winter somewhere in the -30 C range(TBC) > > > > can't tell for baltica in Sherbrooke, still have 1.5 ft of snow in the > > backyard. > > got a bunch of stuff callusing (hopefully) on heated mat on the patio. > > > > again, life is good. > > > > martin > > sherbrooke, qc > > 4b / 950 DD > > _______________________________________________ > > Growwine mailing list > > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.7/1361 - Release Date: 4/5/2008 > > 7:53 AM > > > > > ------- Fin du message transf?r? ------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WPM$2F77.PM$ Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2273 bytes Desc: Corps du message Url : http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080406/54dbaf16/WPM2F77.obj From lonrom at hevanet.com Sun Apr 6 18:16:34 2008 From: lonrom at hevanet.com (Lon J. Rombough) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 15:16:34 -0700 Subject: [Growwine] Grape Sap Message-ID: A few days ago I put two freshly cut, bleeding grape canes into a bottle and collected about a teacup full of sap in two hours, about four to six ounces. It was perfectly clear and had a very slight sweetness. Now I have a reference that indicates that American Indians in South Dakota used to tap the wild Vitis riparia and cook the sap down like maple syrup. Further, Dr. Mark Kleiwer at U.C. Davis did some experiments with bleeding vines. Vines that were pruned while the sap was up and allowed to bleed produced as much as five to ten gallons of sap, without having any measureable difference in fruit yield compared to vines pruned in winter that didn't bleed. What all this suggests is that there could be a very interesting experiment in tapping vines for sap in the spring, reducing the sap, and using it later in winemaking. Or just using it like maple syrup, without reducing the crop. Essentially getting two "crops" from a vine. Not sure what the best way would be to tap a vine, since almost all the wood conducts water, but vines can be girdled repeatedly without harm, so there should be a way to tap them without them being harmed. If someone tries any of this, please contact me offlist. -Lon Rombough Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003. For even more grape lessons, go to http://www.grapeschool.com For all other things grape, http://www.vitisearch.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1538 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080406/52d9a94a/attachment.bin From midmp at abacom.com Mon Apr 7 00:01:44 2008 From: midmp at abacom.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_Par=E9?=) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:01:44 -0800 Subject: [Growwine] Grape Sap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47F92C28.21867.26A9E515@midmp.abacom.com> Ah ! now that is clean healthy fun ! tapping ? maybe with one of the small diameter "chalumeau" used in modern sugaring operations ? what sort of brix did you get ? Maple is 40:1 sap/syrup ratio. Birch is like 100:1 Birch appear they will run later than maple as my maple is on a big run while the birches are dry. Finns (finnish folks?) are said to use birch sap as a spring health "booster". A place over in lanaudiere (Carone country) is making birch syrup ice cream martin On 6 Apr 2008 at 15:16, Lon J. Rombough wrote: > A few days ago I put two freshly cut, bleeding grape canes into a > bottle and collected about a teacup full of sap in two hours, about > four to six ounces. It was perfectly clear and had a very slight > sweetness. Now I have a reference that indicates that American > Indians in South Dakota used to tap the wild Vitis riparia and cook > the sap down like maple syrup. > > Further, Dr. Mark Kleiwer at U.C. Davis did some experiments with > bleeding vines. Vines that were pruned while the sap was up and > allowed to bleed produced as much as five to ten gallons of sap, > without having any measureable difference in fruit yield compared to > vines pruned in winter that didn't bleed. > > What all this suggests is that there could be a very interesting > experiment in tapping vines for sap in the spring, reducing the sap, > and using it later in winemaking. Or just using it like maple syrup, > without reducing the crop. Essentially getting two "crops" from a > vine. Not sure what the best way would be to tap a vine, since almost > all the wood conducts water, but vines can be girdled repeatedly > without harm, so there should be a way to tap them without them being > harmed. > > If someone tries any of this, please contact me offlist. > > -Lon Rombough > > Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, > at http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers > Association "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003. > > For even more grape lessons, go to http://www.grapeschool.com > > For all other things grape, http://www.vitisearch.com > > From lonrom at hevanet.com Sun Apr 6 20:05:46 2008 From: lonrom at hevanet.com (Lon J. Rombough) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 17:05:46 -0700 Subject: [Growwine] Grape Sap In-Reply-To: <47F92C28.21867.26A9E515@midmp.abacom.com> References: <47F92C28.21867.26A9E515@midmp.abacom.com> Message-ID: <73c76567dd3d4d52e4e7a8f1f3766de9@hevanet.com> I haven't been able to measure the Brix yet. The weather needs to warm up a little more to get the sap going better. I hope to collect enough to do some measurements in the next few days. -Lon Rombough Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003. For even more grape lessons, go to http://www.grapeschool.com For all other things grape, http://www.vitisearch.com On Apr 6, 2008, at 9:01 PM, Martin Par? wrote: Ah ! now that is clean healthy fun ! tapping ? maybe with one of the small diameter "chalumeau" used in modern sugaring operations ? what sort of brix did you get ? Maple is 40:1 sap/syrup ratio. Birch is like 100:1 Birch appear they will run later than maple as my maple is on a big run while the birches are dry. Finns (finnish folks?) are said to use birch sap as a spring health "booster". A place over in lanaudiere (Carone country) is making birch syrup ice cream martin On 6 Apr 2008 at 15:16, Lon J. Rombough wrote: > A few days ago I put two freshly cut, bleeding grape canes into a > bottle and collected about a teacup full of sap in two hours, about > four to six ounces. It was perfectly clear and had a very slight > sweetness. Now I have a reference that indicates that American > Indians in South Dakota used to tap the wild Vitis riparia and cook > the sap down like maple syrup. > > Further, Dr. Mark Kleiwer at U.C. Davis did some experiments with > bleeding vines. Vines that were pruned while the sap was up and > allowed to bleed produced as much as five to ten gallons of sap, > without having any measureable difference in fruit yield compared to > vines pruned in winter that didn't bleed. > > What all this suggests is that there could be a very interesting > experiment in tapping vines for sap in the spring, reducing the sap, > and using it later in winemaking. Or just using it like maple syrup, > without reducing the crop. Essentially getting two "crops" from a > vine. Not sure what the best way would be to tap a vine, since almost > all the wood conducts water, but vines can be girdled repeatedly > without harm, so there should be a way to tap them without them being > harmed. > > If someone tries any of this, please contact me offlist. > > -Lon Rombough > > Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, > at http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers > Association "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003. > > For even more grape lessons, go to http://www.grapeschool.com > > For all other things grape, http://www.vitisearch.com > > _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080406/152b3828/attachment.bin From canadavintage at hotmail.com Wed Apr 9 07:31:24 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 08:31:24 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] Malbec in Minnesota and maybe Quebec? References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4FBA82BC-ECEB-4738-98EF-41DD9B33DB62@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: Hey Mark, I am wondering: Do you grow Malbec? If so, how is it in your region? I am considering the variety as a test in zone 4b-5a. Thanks Anthony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080409/85cf3665/attachment.html From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca Wed Apr 9 21:07:05 2008 From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:07:05 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] South Dakota wine boom Message-ID: <002201c89aa7$7aefc910$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C> http://www.kotatv.com:80/Global/story.asp?S=8139928&nav=menu411_2 is an incredible success story which shows that local government support works. I can only wonder when Ontario's moron politicians will realize that making LCBO push domestic instead of the foreign factory crap they recommend so often would be good for all (except perhaps for the many making 6-figure salaries at LCBO perhaps). anyone listening in from South Dakota right now? Lardy Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic) http://www.littlefatwino.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080409/899ac750/attachment.html From mauro at ridgepointwines.com Wed Apr 9 22:30:11 2008 From: mauro at ridgepointwines.com (mauro@ridgepointwines.com) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:30:11 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] Malbec in Minnesota and maybe Quebec? In-Reply-To: References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200804100230.m3A2UBR9026056@mail131c0.megamailservers.com> I would not waste your time. Petite V is even more riskier.  Concentrate on varieties that you dont have to hill up to survive Quoting CanadaVintage : Hey Mark,I am wondering:Do you grow Malbec?  If so, how is it in your region?I am considering the variety as a test in zone 4b-5a.ThanksAnthony   _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine Mauro Scarsellone Ridgepoint Wines 3900 Cherry Avenue Vineland, ON L0R 2C0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080409/f3d3c03f/attachment.html From canadavintage at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 10:11:01 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:11:01 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] Evaluating Ontario's wineries References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200804100230.m3A2UBR9026056@mail131c0.megamailservers.com> Message-ID: For your entertainment reading.... http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=978959 Evaluating Ontario's wineries Posted By By MONIQUE BEECH Posted 14 hours ago A new system of evaluating the tourism experience at Ontario wineries could do for tasting bars what the Vintners Quality Alliance of Ontario did for wine quality, says a Niagara winery owner. Allan Schmidt, president of Vineland Estates Winery, said a new winery inspection program spearheaded by the Wine Council of Ontario may help encourage some lax establishments to clean up their hospitality act. Schmidt said he?s heard tales from disappointed tourists of dirty wine glasses and shoddy service at a few Niagara wine retail boutiques. The new evaluation program could improve that, he said. ?It raises the bar,? Schmidt said. ?Just like VQA did for wine quality,? said Schmidt, referring to standards introduced in 1988 to improve Ontario wines. Until mid June, a mystery shopper from Ontario?s Finest Inns & Spas will be touring Ontario wineries to determine if they?re offering consumers a quality experience, said Hillary Dawson, president of the wine council. The council has partnered with the inns association to create a lengthy, in-depth checklist to evaluate its 80 member wineries. Wineries will be judged on a range of features, including the look of their retail boutique and outdoor landscaping, customer service skills, the variety of wines offered at their tasting bars and whether their wine glasses are clean. For now, feedback will be supplied directly to wineries by mystery shoppers and used internally by the wine council to examine the overall wine country experience. In the future, a winery could receive an Ontario?s Finest designation ? similar to ones given to inns and spas ? and have the stamp printed in the council?s annual Wine Regions of Ontario booklet, available to the public. The stamp would let consumers know a specific property has been evaluated and met certain standards, Dawson said. ?That?s the (possible) next step,? she said. ?We want to get these benchmarks and evaluations done first. Then we?ll work with our members and Ontario?s Finest to see how we move on from there.? Steve Kocsis, owner of Mountain Road Wine Company in Beamsville, said he has mixed feelings about the new evaluation system. Wineries in Niagara come in all sizes, from small craft farm operations to large, picturesque tourist hotspots, and offer visitors different things, Kocsis said. He said his small winery ?boutique? is a 500-square-foot space in the basement of his family home on an operating farm. ?The point here is some of the smaller wineries are not going to be giving the same experience as the larger wineries,? Kocsis said. ?But that in no way impacts the quality of the wine, the value of the wine ... or the enjoyment of the hospitality experienced by visitors.? The wine council spent a long time creating an appropriate winery checklist and took into consideration both large and small wineries, Dawson said. ?We weren?t expecting the smallest winery to be like the biggest ones,? Dawson said. ?I think our wineries, when they get evaluated, are not going to find that. There are some basics of customer service that we think everyone can be expected to live up to, small or large.? Most wineries are using the evaluation as a chance to get some feedback and pinpoint areas of improvement, Dawson said. The province chipped in $56,000 towards the $80,000 project. The wine council is paying the rest. Ontario?s Finest is contributing time and staff. Ontario?s Finest is an association of inns and spas that uses a pass/fail method to evaluate properties, Dawson said. Only inns that make the grade can become members and be included in brochures. Article ID# 978959 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080410/6acf8525/attachment.html From canadavintage at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 10:13:24 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:13:24 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] LCBO admits mistake in ad References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200804100230.m3A2UBR9026056@mail131c0.megamailservers.com> Message-ID: LCBO admits mistake in ad Posted By By MONIQUE BEECH Updated 13 hours ago The LCBO admits it made a mistake by featuring an Ontario wine containing foreign juice in an advertisement encouraging people to buy local products and follow the popular 100-Mile Diet. The provincial liquor board?s recent ?Enviro Chic? campaign featured a picture of a Peller Estates French Cross Chardonnay, a Cellared in Canada product made from a mix of imported and domestic wines, on a page promoting the 100-Mile Diet. The page, part of an LCBO flyer promoting green-friendly products, mentions the average meal ingredient travels 1,500 miles and urges readers to host a 100-Mile Dinner, consisting of products that originate within a 100-mile radius of their home. Blended or Cellared in Canada wines can contain up to 70 per cent imported grapes shipped in from any country around the globe. LCBO spokesman Chris Layton said French Cross does contain some local content, but likely wasn?t the best way of highlighting buying local. ?We?ll fully admit that wasn?t the best example,? Layton said. The point was ?to get people thinking about being environmentally conscious. That?s what the whole promotion was about.? The advertisement also shows a bottle of 20 Bees wine, made by the former Niagara Vintners Inc., which was produced with 100 per cent Ontario grapes. David Lailey, owner of Lailey Vineyards in Niagara-on-the-Lake, said the ad should be an industry-wide concern and it hurts credibility with consumers. While praising the LCBO?s efforts to go green, Lailey said he found its efforts to promote Ontario wines disappointing and confusing to customers who think they?re looking at a local product. ?What began as a good idea to be environmentally sensitive and promote local somehow morphs into self-parody when it gets to Ontario,? said Lailey, whose winery focuses on local wines. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080410/7375e2de/attachment.html From ryan at darksleep.com Thu Apr 10 10:55:02 2008 From: ryan at darksleep.com (Ryan Daum) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:55:02 -0400 Subject: [Growwine] LCBO admits mistake in ad In-Reply-To: References: <200804100230.m3A2UBR9026056@mail131c0.megamailservers.com> Message-ID: <20080410145501.GA26460@darksleep.com> Bet I can guess what happened here. Marketing manager at LCBO likely knows that Ontario consumers are unlikely to buy wines over $12. Their most popular sellers are likely "Yellow Tail", "Naked Grape", etc. So the marketing manager, knowing he had to promote something local, asked marketing staff to pull a list from the database of "Ontario" products at $12 and under. As it's not possible to successfully make actual Ontario wine for under $12, these two products came up: a Cellared in Ontario wine, and a wine from a winery that went bankrupt trying to make Ontario wine for under $12. Ryan On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 11:13:24AM -0300, CanadaVintage wrote: > LCBO admits mistake in ad > Posted By By MONIQUE BEECH > Updated 13 hours ago > The LCBO admits it made a mistake by featuring an Ontario wine containing foreign juice in an advertisement encouraging people to buy local products and follow the popular 100-Mile Diet. > > The provincial liquor board???s recent ???Enviro Chic??? campaign featured a picture of a Peller Estates French Cross Chardonnay, a Cellared in Canada product made from a mix of imported and domestic wines, on a page promoting the 100-Mile Diet. > > The page, part of an LCBO flyer promoting green-friendly products, mentions the average meal ingredient travels 1,500 miles and urges readers to host a 100-Mile Dinner, consisting of products that originate within a 100-mile radius of their home. > > Blended or Cellared in Canada wines can contain up to 70 per cent imported grapes shipped in from any country around the globe. > > LCBO spokesman Chris Layton said French Cross does contain some local content, but likely wasn???t the best way of highlighting buying local. > > ???We???ll fully admit that wasn???t the best example,??? Layton said. > > The point was ???to get people thinking about being environmentally conscious. That???s what the whole promotion was about.??? > > The advertisement also shows a bottle of 20 Bees wine, made by the former Niagara Vintners Inc., which was produced with 100 per cent Ontario grapes. > > David Lailey, owner of Lailey Vineyards in Niagara-on-the-Lake, said the ad should be an industry-wide concern and it hurts credibility with consumers. > > While praising the LCBO???s efforts to go green, Lailey said he found its efforts to promote Ontario wines disappointing and confusing to customers who think they???re looking at a local product. > > ???What began as a good idea to be environmentally sensitive and promote local somehow morphs into self-parody when it gets to Ontario,??? said Lailey, whose winery focuses on local wines. > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine From pabls at yahoo.com Thu Apr 10 12:55:36 2008 From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Growwine] LCBO admits mistake in ad Message-ID: <704768.92962.qm@web56815.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I know that some will think this to be "pie in the sky", but I keep coming back to a central point: Somehow, local consumers have to develop a love of and clear preference for local things in order for 100% Ontario-grown wines to gain the required cachet. It's very difficult to do anything when you have an open marketplace and others under-cut you on price or tacky marketing that consumers readily buy into. We Canadians would do well to develop some "strategic chauvinism" in favour of locally grown products ... That our government should show a selective preference for the home turf seems like utter common sense - it's too bad that the principle of supporting the local economy doesn't seem to matter to them. ----- Original Message ---- David Lailey, owner of Lailey Vineyards in Niagara-on-the-Lake, said the ad should be an industry-wide concern and it hurts credibility with consumers. While praising the LCBO?s efforts to go green, Lailey said he found its efforts to promote Ontario wines disappointing and confusing to customers who think they?re looking at a local product. ?What began as a good idea to be environmentally sensitive and promote local somehow morphs into self-parody when it gets to Ontario,? said Lailey, whose winery focuses on local wines. __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From canadavintage at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 19:42:44 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:42:44 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] LCBO admits mistake in ad References: <200804100230.m3A2UBR9026056@mail131c0.megamailservers.com> <20080410145501.GA26460@darksleep.com> Message-ID: It's not possible to make actual Quebec wine for under $12 (unless you are selling it directly to consumers and not the SAQ), but voila, we have those here too! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Daum" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] LCBO admits mistake in ad > Bet I can guess what happened here. > > Marketing manager at LCBO likely knows that Ontario consumers are > unlikely to buy wines over $12. Their most popular sellers are likely > "Yellow Tail", "Naked Grape", etc. So the marketing manager, knowing > he had to promote something local, asked marketing staff to pull a > list from the database of "Ontario" products at $12 and under. As it's > not possible to successfully make actual Ontario wine for under $12, > these two products came up: a Cellared in Ontario wine, and a wine > from a winery that went bankrupt trying to make Ontario wine for under > $12. > > Ryan > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 11:13:24AM -0300, CanadaVintage wrote: >> LCBO admits mistake in ad >> Posted By By MONIQUE BEECH >> Updated 13 hours ago >> The LCBO admits it made a mistake by featuring an Ontario wine containing >> foreign juice in an advertisement encouraging people to buy local >> products and follow the popular 100-Mile Diet. >> >> The provincial liquor board???s recent ???Enviro Chic??? campaign >> featured a picture of a Peller Estates French Cross Chardonnay, a >> Cellared in Canada product made from a mix of imported and domestic >> wines, on a page promoting the 100-Mile Diet. >> >> The page, part of an LCBO flyer promoting green-friendly products, >> mentions the average meal ingredient travels 1,500 miles and urges >> readers to host a 100-Mile Dinner, consisting of products that originate >> within a 100-mile radius of their home. >> >> Blended or Cellared in Canada wines can contain up to 70 per cent >> imported grapes shipped in from any country around the globe. >> >> LCBO spokesman Chris Layton said French Cross does contain some local >> content, but likely wasn???t the best way of highlighting buying local. >> >> ???We???ll fully admit that wasn???t the best example,??? Layton said. >> >> The point was ???to get people thinking about being environmentally >> conscious. That???s what the whole promotion was about.??? >> >> The advertisement also shows a bottle of 20 Bees wine, made by the former >> Niagara Vintners Inc., which was produced with 100 per cent Ontario >> grapes. >> >> David Lailey, owner of Lailey Vineyards in Niagara-on-the-Lake, said the >> ad should be an industry-wide concern and it hurts credibility with >> consumers. >> >> While praising the LCBO???s efforts to go green, Lailey said he found its >> efforts to promote Ontario wines disappointing and confusing to customers >> who think they???re looking at a local product. >> >> ???What began as a good idea to be environmentally sensitive and promote >> local somehow morphs into self-parody when it gets to Ontario,??? said >> Lailey, whose winery focuses on local wines. > >> _______________________________________________ >> Growwine mailing list >> Growwine at littlefatwino.com >> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine > From markhart at hardygrapes.com Fri Apr 11 09:50:42 2008 From: markhart at hardygrapes.com (Mark Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:50:42 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Malbec in Minnesota and maybe Quebec? In-Reply-To: References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4FBA82BC-ECEB-4738-98EF-41DD9B33DB62@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: <1031870D-8264-4A0C-B390-6E15F957E566@hardygrapes.com> Anthony, I do not grow Malbec. I am a grapebreeder, and not a commercial producer. I do grow one or two vines of a lot of winter tender (vinifera) varieties to evaluate as parent material, but not Malbec (Cot). I did use it, from external pollen, in a few crosses a couple years ago; and have a few young vines from those crosses. As for vinifera, you often read some report from a warmer region about this or that variety being cold hardy or producing a nice wine. Those types of characteristics generally don't travel well. In a short season with a extremely cold winter, vines behave quite differently than in some temperate climate with occasional freezes during the winter. The character of the wines from a variety also can be drastically different under our conditions. Honestly, I do not recommend that anyone in Minnesota or Quebec commercially plant vinifera anymore. We are now in an era with suitable varieties for our conditions, with more coming, and we should concentrate on growing, vinifying and promoting those. Mark Hart On Apr 9, 2008, at 6:31 AM, CanadaVintage wrote: > Hey Mark, > I am wondering: > Do you grow Malbec? If so, how is it in your region? > I am considering the variety as a test in zone 4b-5a. > Thanks > Anthony > > > _______________________________________________ > Growwine mailing list > Growwine at littlefatwino.com > http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080411/6782faf3/attachment.html From canadavintage at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 09:07:05 2008 From: canadavintage at hotmail.com (CanadaVintage) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:07:05 -0300 Subject: [Growwine] Malbec in Minnesota and maybe Quebec? References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4FBA82BC-ECEB-4738-98EF-41DD9B33DB62@hardygrapes.com> <1031870D-8264-4A0C-B390-6E15F957E566@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: I agree, but I am interested in Malbec for the purpose of breeding. We have been growing Sangiovese, Brunello di Multipulciano, Trebbiano and others for this very purpose. You mention you have crossed Malbec. I'd be interested in knowing with what. Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Hart To: growwine at littlefatwino.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [Growwine] Malbec in Minnesota and maybe Quebec? Anthony, I do not grow Malbec. I am a grapebreeder, and not a commercial producer. I do grow one or two vines of a lot of winter tender (vinifera) varieties to evaluate as parent material, but not Malbec (Cot). I did use it, from external pollen, in a few crosses a couple years ago; and have a few young vines from those crosses. As for vinifera, you often read some report from a warmer region about this or that variety being cold hardy or producing a nice wine. Those types of characteristics generally don't travel well. In a short season with a extremely cold winter, vines behave quite differently than in some temperate climate with occasional freezes during the winter. The character of the wines from a variety also can be drastically different under our conditions. Honestly, I do not recommend that anyone in Minnesota or Quebec commercially plant vinifera anymore. We are now in an era with suitable varieties for our conditions, with more coming, and we should concentrate on growing, vinifying and promoting those. Mark Hart On Apr 9, 2008, at 6:31 AM, CanadaVintage wrote: Hey Mark, I am wondering: Do you grow Malbec? If so, how is it in your region? I am considering the variety as a test in zone 4b-5a. Thanks Anthony _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Growwine mailing list Growwine at littlefatwino.com http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.littlefatwino.com/pipermail/growwine/attachments/20080411/412639f0/attachment.html From markhart at hardygrapes.com Fri Apr 11 11:27:13 2008 From: markhart at hardygrapes.com (Mark Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:27:13 -0500 Subject: [Growwine] Malbec in Minnesota and maybe Quebec? In-Reply-To: References: <237428.70531.qm@web56803.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4FBA82BC-ECEB-4738-98EF-41DD9B33DB62@hardygrapes.com> <1031870D-8264-4A0C-B390-6E15F957E566@hardygrapes.com> Message-ID: <4328BD35-351A-444F-A90D-CB6D535B1712@hardygrapes.com> Anthony, I get 3000-7000 seeds a year from breeding. That comes from 80-120 crosses. That is fewer seeds from each cross than in other programs, primarily because I do one cluster and mine tend to be smaller clusters. The total number of seeds is what is really important to the speed of progress in grape breeding. Crosses directly to a vinifera parent do not tend to give offspring that I can use directly (consider for possible release); generally the seedlings are too tender and too disease susceptible. However, my program is directed at vinifera-type hybrids, and it is essential to use vinifera in the breeding, either in my own crosses or those of other programs. Starting with vinifera you are 2-3 generations away from a variety that matches my objective