From petersalonius at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  1 08:15:44 2008
From: petersalonius at hotmail.com (peter salonius)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:15:44 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl> 
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY136-W63C8EE7A4E6D3D553F160A9510@phx.gbl>


I have gone into some detail describing the absolute simplest method of starting cuttings in your
garden in the last pages of my variety list on the web at:
 
http://www.littlefatwino.com/peterslist.html 
 
-----------------essentially you wait until the danger of killing frost is over in the 
spring, then stick the cittings in the soil and NEVER LET THE SOIL GET VERY DRY//
then stop watering in late summer so the [now] rooted cuttings can harden off
for winter.
 
Peter Salonius=====================================================================> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:04:34 -0500> From: george.sansom at gmail.com> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings> > Hi Peter,> > Would you mind going one step further. When do you dig them up and> how do you get them started.> > My problem has always been with them dying off after they have sprouted.> > Thanks,> > George> > =====================================================================================> On 12/31/07, peter salonius <petersalonius at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > Biological activity, including mildew (mold) growth, insect (or mite)> > activity AND respiration of stored sugars by cuttings (weakening them) all> > increase as temperature rises ///> >> > I wrap cuttings in damp paper towelling, building the wrap like papier mache> > until there is complete coverage >> then seal the wrapped cuttings in 2 mil> > plastic bags >> then place package in cold storage as close to 0 degrees> > Centigrade as possible.> > --- anything above MINUS 5 degrees is satisfactory.> >> > Alternatively the packages can be buried about 50 cm deep in the garden ---> > but by the time cuttings are taken in the fall, the soil is generally frozen> > ---- so some serious forward planning/ excavation and warm soil storage for> > hole filling is called for.> >> > Peter Salonius> >> > (Purveyor of grape wood cuttings in late fall)> > ==========================================================> >> >> > From: vnefv at brant.netTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comDate: Sun, 30 Dec 2007> > 11:28:17 -0500Subject: [Growwine] treatments for vine cuttings> >> >> >> > I would like to ask growwiners about how they care for cuttings in respect> > to prevention/management of mildew and spider mites.> > Phil Ryan> > Simcoe Ont> > _________________________________________________________________> > Use fowl language with Chicktionary. Click here to start playing!> > http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig> _______________________________________________> Growwine mailing list> Growwine at littlefatwino.com> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon!
http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig
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From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca  Tue Jan  1 10:39:46 2008
From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:39:46 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Challenge tasting
Message-ID: <001801c84c8c$8d487e90$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>

Happy fuzzy-headed snow day...

There will be a blind tasting of homemade cabernet merlot wines against commercial examples of the same, which will include at least one classed growth Bordeaux and other (perhaps) lesser wines.

The cost will be $15 per person, which in this case will include any person on this list who wishes to join our amateur winemaking club for this one day.  (The $15 is to cover the cost of the commercial wines in the tasting.)

The tasting will be at my house, located in Peterborough, on Sunday January 13th at 2:00 p.m. and will run until probably 4:00 p.m. or perhaps 4:30 p.m.  Directions are online at  http://littlefatwino.com/1325royal.html

If anyone wishes to come from out of town, they would be welcome to stay overnight on either side of the tasting, and I'll even share my thin gruel at breakfast time...

please reserve in advance by emailing me at littlefatwino at trytel.net, or by calling me at 705-743-4153.  If you are attending and wish to donate one of your own Cabernet Merlot wines (at least 85% approved red Bordeaux grapes) please let me know in advance.

many thanks

Lardy

Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
(Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

http://www.littlefatwino.com/

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From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca  Tue Jan  1 11:33:18 2008
From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:33:18 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008
Message-ID: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>

Hi again everyone:

I'm going to try to redesign grape growing portions of the lfw website this year, and am looking for information for one project associated with this.

Can anyone give me (post to the list if you feel appropriate) a status report on the varieties from the University of Minnesota that are proceeding through quarantine into Canada in 2008?   Are there other potentially useful cold-climate varieties working their way through from other sources?

I'm hoping to use this information to put up some kind of guide to planting a small vineyard in various cold climates on the lfw website, and want to be sure that the recommended varieties are available.

I would also appreciate contributions to this project, maybe starting in February.  It is a long-range effort to put up information that will allow a person to have a personal vineyard in the range of 5 vines through 150 vines, with winemaking and other suggestions included.

Contributions from commercial operations will certainly be credited within these articles, and links made.  This would include helpful hints from commercial wineries or vine suppliers (funny thing I've noticed is that the more serious a person gets about growing grapes the more likely they are to visit and support a local winery...).

Help!!

thanks in advance to all,

Lardy

Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
(Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

http://www.littlefatwino.com/

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From s.mailloux at sympatico.ca  Tue Jan  1 11:55:20 2008
From: s.mailloux at sympatico.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien_Mailloux?=)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:55:20 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008
References: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP06A12200DF3501AFDF0439EB510@CEZ.ICE>

This is a nice idea.  I might be able to help you.  If for example you need some report on the winemaking of X, Y, Z variety I could certainly write you a description of the grapes and wines it produce in my climate.  I have lot's of the most recent MN variety.  I think I may be the first one this year to make icewine from Swenson White for example.  I will also make icewine trial with Frontenac Gris, St-Croix and ES 5-17.  Just very small trial lot to decide what we plant in large scale.  I will press theses as soon as our hydraulic press is ready to use.  

I hope you could come at one of the vineyard where I work in summer of 2008.  I think you will appreciate all the works put into the vineyard.  You already met the vineyard owner ( Fr?d?ric G?linas ) at the Vignoble de l'Ile Ronde last year.

S?b
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Larry Paterson 
  To: Growwine List 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 11:33 AM
  Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008


  Hi again everyone:

  I'm going to try to redesign grape growing portions of the lfw website this year, and am looking for information for one project associated with this.

  Can anyone give me (post to the list if you feel appropriate) a status report on the varieties from the University of Minnesota that are proceeding through quarantine into Canada in 2008?   Are there other potentially useful cold-climate varieties working their way through from other sources?

  I'm hoping to use this information to put up some kind of guide to planting a small vineyard in various cold climates on the lfw website, and want to be sure that the recommended varieties are available.

  I would also appreciate contributions to this project, maybe starting in February.  It is a long-range effort to put up information that will allow a person to have a personal vineyard in the range of 5 vines through 150 vines, with winemaking and other suggestions included.

  Contributions from commercial operations will certainly be credited within these articles, and links made.  This would include helpful hints from commercial wineries or vine suppliers (funny thing I've noticed is that the more serious a person gets about growing grapes the more likely they are to visit and support a local winery...).

  Help!!

  thanks in advance to all,

  Lardy

  Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
  (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

  http://www.littlefatwino.com/




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Growwine mailing list
  Growwine at littlefatwino.com
  http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
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From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca  Tue Jan  1 12:04:08 2008
From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:04:08 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008
References: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP145FD15BA211BEC8E07AEEE4510@CEZ.ICE>

Larry, you might want to also look into what Andrew Jamieson has at the Kentville Station, N.S. facility as there are some numbered varieties there that might fit.

Terry
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Larry Paterson 
  To: Growwine List 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 11:33 AM
  Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008


  Hi again everyone:

  I'm going to try to redesign grape growing portions of the lfw website this year, and am looking for information for one project associated with this.

  Can anyone give me (post to the list if you feel appropriate) a status report on the varieties from the University of Minnesota that are proceeding through quarantine into Canada in 2008?   Are there other potentially useful cold-climate varieties working their way through from other sources?

  I'm hoping to use this information to put up some kind of guide to planting a small vineyard in various cold climates on the lfw website, and want to be sure that the recommended varieties are available.

  I would also appreciate contributions to this project, maybe starting in February.  It is a long-range effort to put up information that will allow a person to have a personal vineyard in the range of 5 vines through 150 vines, with winemaking and other suggestions included.

  Contributions from commercial operations will certainly be credited within these articles, and links made.  This would include helpful hints from commercial wineries or vine suppliers (funny thing I've noticed is that the more serious a person gets about growing grapes the more likely they are to visit and support a local winery...).

  Help!!

  thanks in advance to all,

  Lardy

  Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
  (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

  http://www.littlefatwino.com/




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Growwine mailing list
  Growwine at littlefatwino.com
  http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
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From ryan at darksleep.com  Tue Jan  1 15:26:30 2008
From: ryan at darksleep.com (Ryan Daum)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:26:30 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008
In-Reply-To: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
References: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
Message-ID: <1199219190.7602.3.camel@teak>

Larry, if you are doing any kind of overhaul of the content of your LFW
site, you might consider switching over to using a content management
system such as Drupal, etc.  With this you would get more consistent
formatting and navigation, and can get features like forums, blogs, and
so on.  The best part is you don't have to write HTML pages, upload
them, etc. you just use the built in editing in Drupal.

I could set this up and host it for you, if you're interested.

Ryan

On Tue, 2008-01-01 at 11:33 -0500, Larry Paterson wrote:
> Hi again everyone:
>  
> I'm going to try to redesign grape growing portions of the lfw website
> this year, and am looking for information for one project associated
> with this.
>  
> Can anyone give me (post to the list if you feel appropriate) a status
> report on the varieties from the University of Minnesota that are
> proceeding through quarantine into Canada in 2008?   Are there other
> potentially useful cold-climate varieties working their way through
> from other sources?
>  
> I'm hoping to use this information to put up some kind of guide to
> planting a small vineyard in various cold climates on the lfw website,
> and want to be sure that the recommended varieties are available.
>  
> I would also appreciate contributions to this project, maybe starting
> in February.  It is a long-range effort to put up information that
> will allow a person to have a personal vineyard in the range of 5
> vines through 150 vines, with winemaking and other suggestions
> included.
>  
> Contributions from commercial operations will certainly be credited
> within these articles, and links made.  This would include helpful
> hints from commercial wineries or vine suppliers (funny thing I've
> noticed is that the more serious a person gets about growing grapes
> the more likely they are to visit and support a local winery...).
>  
> Help!!
>  
> thanks in advance to all,
>  
> Lardy
>  
> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)
>  
> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine


From markhart at hardygrapes.com  Tue Jan  1 16:12:52 2008
From: markhart at hardygrapes.com (Mark Hart)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:12:52 -0600
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <000a01c84bcd$5de35ea0$6500a8c0@D331RW21>
References: <000a01c84bcd$5de35ea0$6500a8c0@D331RW21>
Message-ID: <4AB172A8-00F2-446D-9310-9B34FFFB9341@hardygrapes.com>

Ralph,

I believe the label on Chinosol suggests a 30 hour soak/rinse to  
remove the chemical.  It has a greater (negative) effect on graft take  
than on rooting.

Mark Hart
On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Ralph Walton2 wrote:

> You should also be aware that some suppliers (CFIA in particular)  
> use Chinosol Fungicide (8-hydroxy quinoline sulfate) and in previous  
> years Captan (ethyl mercaptan or 1H-isoindole-1,3(2H)-dione) on  
> their shipped cuttings. These should be soaked for a couple of hours  
> and the water discarded then again in a fresh soak for several more  
> hours before setting into rooting boxes or what ever you are using.  
> The Chinosol can inhibit budding.
>
> Ralph Walton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com 
> ] On Behalf Of peter salonius
> Sent: December 31, 2007 4:41 AM
> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
> Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>
> Biological activity, including mildew (mold) growth, insect (or  
> mite) activity AND respiration of stored sugars by cuttings  
> (weakening them) all increase as temperature rises ///
>
> I wrap cuttings in damp paper towelling, building the wrap like  
> papier mache until there is complete coverage >> then seal the  
> wrapped cuttings in 2 mil plastic bags >> then place package in cold  
> storage as close to 0 degrees Centigrade as possible.
> --- anything above MINUS 5 degrees is satisfactory.
>
> Alternatively the packages can be buried about 50 cm deep in the  
> garden --- but by the time cuttings are taken in the fall, the soil  
> is generally frozen ---- so some serious forward planning/  
> excavation and warm soil storage for hole filling is called for.
>
> Peter Salonius
>
> (Purveyor of grape wood cuttings in late fall)
>
> ==========================================================
> From: vnefv at brant.net
> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:28:17 -0500
> Subject: [Growwine] treatments for vine cuttings
> I would like to ask growwiners about how they care for cuttings in  
> respect to prevention/management of mildew and spider mites.
> Phil Ryan
> Simcoe Ont
>
> HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit  
> asksanta.ca to learn more!
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine

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From scott.dolson at sympatico.ca  Wed Jan  2 09:49:39 2008
From: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca (Scott Dolson)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:49:39 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] lfw primary website goal for 2008
In-Reply-To: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
References: <005601c84c94$0603c400$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
Message-ID: <477BA483.5080105@sympatico.ca>

Hello Larry;

I am not the 'Official Messenger' ... so please don't shoot the messenger...

In my autumn of 2007 discussions with the University of Minnesota, they 
suggest that any of their plant stock in Canada is here as _'Unlicensed 
Product_'... that is, no one person or no one company in Canada ... or 
Quebec...  has been, to date, approved as a Licensed Agent to sell their 
product.

Having said that, the only  U of M plant product that I am aware of to 
be CFIA approved, is Frontenac.... but according to U of M, still not 
'Licensed to be Sold'. Therefore, all of the Frontenac Gris, Marquette, 
La Crescent... and more stuff, such as Swenson & Johnson plant stock, 
may be in Candida without CFIA official sanction and/or Plant Stock 
Breeder approval.

Anyway, in regards to what all this means down the road, this is beyond 
my scope of interpretation... I have simply requested from the U of M to 
be approved as a Regional 'Licensed Distributor' of their product, and 
therefore if approved, will submit Royalties to U of M.

I have attached the email addresses of the two U of M staff persons 
whom, to my knowledge, have authority over these issues. I am sure they 
would welcome any input from your self and others... and should be able 
to provide updates in respect to product release from phytosanitary 
testing in California.

I have started a small business, Scott's Grapes & Berries Co., to 
provide plant stock and growing information  to small hobbyist or 
emerging growers of hardy Grape & Berry varieties... you can check out 
my web site at :  scottsgrapesandberries.com

This web site is still under development because my computing skills are 
sorely lacking and ... pending certain approvals from U of M.


Scott

Larry Paterson wrote:
> Hi again everyone:
>  
> I'm going to try to redesign grape growing portions of the lfw website 
> this year, and am looking for information for one project associated 
> with this.
>  
> Can anyone give me (post to the list if you feel appropriate) a status 
> report on the varieties from the University of Minnesota that are 
> proceeding through quarantine into Canada in 2008?   Are there other 
> potentially useful cold-climate varieties working their way through 
> from other sources?
>  
> I'm hoping to use this information to put up some kind of guide to 
> planting a small vineyard in various cold climates on the lfw website, 
> and want to be sure that the recommended varieties are available.
>  
> I would also appreciate contributions to this project, maybe starting 
> in February.  It is a long-range effort to put up information that 
> will allow a person to have a personal vineyard in the range of 5 
> vines through 150 vines, with winemaking and other suggestions included.
>  
> Contributions from commercial operations will certainly be credited 
> within these articles, and links made.  This would include helpful 
> hints from commercial wineries or vine suppliers (funny thing I've 
> noticed is that the more serious a person gets about growing grapes 
> the more likely they are to visit and support a local winery...).
>  
> Help!!
>  
> thanks in advance to all,
>  
> Lardy
>  
> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)
>  
> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
>  
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>   
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From pabls at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 15:27:08 2008
From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:27:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Growwine] Do any new-generation hybrids use Zweigelt?
Message-ID: <497636.6029.qm@web56801.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I don't think I've heard of any such crossings, but does anyone know if any new-generation hybrids being tested have any Zweigelt in their makeup?  I have read that Zweigelt is quite winter hardy and disease resistant for a vinifera, and true Zweigelt does make a very nice table wine in Ontario.  How about using it for breeding with riparia/rupestris complex hybrids, along the lines of how Blattner used Cabernet, to produce grapes with the sort of fine tannins and flavours that viniferaphiles crave?

Anyone know anything about such possible crosses?

Cheers
Paul


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From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca  Wed Jan  2 17:39:00 2008
From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Tony Aspler gets Order of Canada
Message-ID: <00f601c84d90$736a39f0$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>

Always nice to see someone in the Greater Canadian Wine industry gain such well-earned recognition!

(and he is a downtown T'Ranna grower of Louise Swenson, charitably feeding them to local raccoons each year!)

http://www.decanter.com:80/news/171630.html

Many of the more than 300 people listening in to this listserver were mentioned in Tony's book Wine Atlas of Canada
see   http://littlefatwino.com/wac.html

well done Tony!


Lardy

Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
(Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

http://www.littlefatwino.com/

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From littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca  Fri Jan  4 00:43:33 2008
From: littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca (Larry Paterson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 00:43:33 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
Message-ID: <004901c84e95$a4720a90$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>

Vernon  I tried and tried but could only get two of the pictures online (the others opened but nothing was there).  sorry.

http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg

http://littlefatwino.com/temp2.jpg

Lardy

Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
(Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

http://www.littlefatwino.com/




From: Vernon Speer <vspeer at mchsi.com>
Date: January 2, 2008 10:57:11 AM CST
To: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca, growwine at littlefatwino.com
Subject: Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree


Scott,


I've got a test going...


A little background. I'm in the middle of Missouri's orchard area...the top end of the Ozarks...lots of grapes, apples and peach. I talked with an orchard owner two years ago and "reserved" a tree. He sold the orchard and my agreement went by the way...so I made an agreement with the new owner...we had a late Spring frost and very few apples...


But...


I've got about a gallon semi-working. I haven't found a yeast that will handle it without sticking...and I've pretty much run the rack on types. Any suggestions from the guys up there that do this sort of thing?


I have a pretty concentrated mix so not really sure how much alcohol I have in the wine...and it's not clearing so I may have to fin and fortify...but that kinda ruins the test. Let's stay in touch and see if we can come up with some answers.


Here's a picture taken a day apart of three jugs on my deck I was cold?stabilizing...black berry, strawberry and cranberry...I think they're?stabilized!


Vernon


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:

Hello Vernon;

Sadly, I am 0 for 1 on this trial. 

About a week ago, I had pressed approximately? 5 gallon pail of frozen (-12C) apples, wizzened and not very easy to secrete fluids... I only collected about 600 milliliters. So, really not enough apple mass to create enough liquid volume for this project. 

I had also ordered some R2 yeast from two different sources, and neither has arrived to this date... no doubt, Xmas mail complications ... hence I have taken the 600 ml of liquid gold and added this to the pressed apple pulp...plus about 20 liters of well water and 4kg each of liquefied dextrose & cane sugar, plus EC 1118 yeast.

Very late harvest apple wine???

Next year...trial #2.

Scott

Vernon Speer wrote: 
  Scott, like Terry, I'd be very interested in your project. I'm 0 for 3 on attempts at Apple Ice Wine and would welcome any posting you would care to share with us. 


  Vernon


  On Dec 6, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:

  Hello Terry;

  No I don't. I live on a farm where there are about 30-40 old style/heritage type apple tress. I kind of reasoned that years ago some old farmer planted all these trees to make a cider. Last spring I started to document certain aspects of each with hopes of identifying these... but this is quite a chore. This particular tree retains the apples for the longest period of time, so this year (maybe) with the 100 M1-11 apple rootstock I purchased last year, I will do some grafting...however, I may concentrate with scions from this particular tree.

  Scott

  Terry Rayner wrote: 
Scott, do you know what type of apples that these are by any chance.

Terry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
To: "Growwine List" <growwine at littlefatwino.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree


  The picture below is actually (temporarily only, large file) online at

http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg

Thanks Scott

Lardy

Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
(Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

http://www.littlefatwino.com/


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Dolson" <scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>
To: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:03 AM
Subject: Apple Ice Wine Tree


Hello Larry;

Here is a picture of my "Apple Ice Wine" ... still on the tree. This is 
from the ice storm earlier this week. If you want to share this with the 
group... please do so.

Scott

_______________________________________________
Growwine mailing list
Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
    _______________________________________________
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Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lardy,

Thanks, sorry I thought I was sending this direct to Scott.

Vernon

Begin forwarded message:

From: Vernon Speer <vspeer at mchsi.com>
Date: January 2, 2008 10:57:11 AM CST
To: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca, growwine at littlefatwino.com
Subject: Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree

Scott,

I've got a test going...

A little background. I'm in the middle of Missouri's orchard  
area...the top end of the Ozarks...lots of grapes, apples and peach.  
I talked with an orchard owner two years ago and "reserved" a tree.  
He sold the orchard and my agreement went by the way...so I made an  
agreement with the new owner...we had a late Spring frost and very  
few apples...

But...

I've got about a gallon semi-working. I haven't found a yeast that  
will handle it without sticking...and I've pretty much run the rack  
on types. Any suggestions from the guys up there that do this sort of  
thing?

I have a pretty concentrated mix so not really sure how much alcohol  
I have in the wine...and it's not clearing so I may have to fin and  
fortify...but that kinda ruins the test. Let's stay in touch and see  
if we can come up with some answers.

Here's a picture taken a day apart of three jugs on my deck I was  
cold stabilizing...black berry, strawberry and cranberry...I think  
they're stabilized!

Vernon
??


On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:

Hello Vernon;

Sadly, I am 0 for 1 on this trial.

About a week ago, I had pressed approximately  5 gallon pail of  
frozen (-12C) apples, wizzened and not very easy to secrete fluids...  
I only collected about 600 milliliters. So, really not enough apple  
mass to create enough liquid volume for this project.

I had also ordered some R2 yeast from two different sources, and  
neither has arrived to this date... no doubt, Xmas mail  
complications ... hence I have taken the 600 ml of liquid gold and  
added this to the pressed apple pulp...plus about 20 liters of well  
water and 4kg each of liquefied dextrose & cane sugar, plus EC 1118  
yeast.

Very late harvest apple wine???

Next year...trial #2.

Scott

Vernon Speer wrote:
>
> Scott, like Terry, I'd be very interested in your project. I'm 0  
> for 3 on attempts at Apple Ice Wine and would welcome any posting  
> you would care to share with us.
>
> Vernon
>
> On Dec 6, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:
>
> Hello Terry;
>
> No I don't. I live on a farm where there are about 30-40 old style/ 
> heritage type apple tress. I kind of reasoned that years ago some  
> old farmer planted all these trees to make a cider. Last spring I  
> started to document certain aspects of each with hopes of  
> identifying these... but this is quite a chore. This particular  
> tree retains the apples for the longest period of time, so this  
> year (maybe) with the 100 M1-11 apple rootstock I purchased last  
> year, I will do some grafting...however, I may concentrate with  
> scions from this particular tree.
>
> Scott
>
> Terry Rayner wrote:
>>
>> Scott, do you know what type of apples that these are by any chance.
>>
>> Terry
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
>> To: "Growwine List" <growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:08 PM
>> Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
>>
>>
>>
>>> The picture below is actually (temporarily only, large file)  
>>> online at
>>>
>>> http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg
>>>
>>> Thanks Scott
>>>
>>> Lardy
>>>
>>> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
>>> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels  
>>> Critic)
>>>
>>> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Scott Dolson" <scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>
>>> To: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:03 AM
>>> Subject: Apple Ice Wine Tree
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Larry;
>>>
>>> Here is a picture of my "Apple Ice Wine" ... still on the tree.  
>>> This is
>>> from the ice storm earlier this week. If you want to share this  
>>> with the
>>> group... please do so.
>>>
>>> Scott
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From vnefv at brant.net  Fri Jan  4 07:13:53 2008
From: vnefv at brant.net (Phil Ryan)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:13:53 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
References: <000a01c84bcd$5de35ea0$6500a8c0@D331RW21>
	<4AB172A8-00F2-446D-9310-9B34FFFB9341@hardygrapes.com>
Message-ID: <009501c84ecb$49f13010$43e88bcf@mycomputer>

Mark, Ralph & Peter;
I had no idea that chinosol had those effects.I have used it and been disappointed with cutting/grafting success at times.

Do you have any advice on the use of Captan?

Peter, I am storing my cuttings as you recommend until I'm ready to grow them.

Phil Ryan
Simcoe Ont
  ----- Original Message ----- . 
  From: Mark Hart 
  To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings


  Ralph,


  I believe the label on Chinosol suggests a 30 hour soak/rinse to remove the chemical.  It has a greater (negative) effect on graft take than on rooting.


  Mark Hart

  On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Ralph Walton2 wrote:


    You should also be aware that some suppliers (CFIA in particular) use Chinosol Fungicide (8-hydroxy quinoline sulfate) and in previous years Captan (ethyl mercaptan or 1H-isoindole-1,3(2H)-dione) on their shipped cuttings. These should be soaked for a couple of hours and the water discarded then again in a fresh soak for several more hours before setting into rooting boxes or what ever you are using. The Chinosol can inhibit budding.


    Ralph Walton


    -----Original Message-----
    From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of peter salonius
    Sent: December 31, 2007 4:41 AM
    To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
    Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings


    Biological activity, including mildew (mold) growth, insect (or mite) activity AND respiration of stored sugars by cuttings (weakening them) all increase as temperature rises ///
     
    I wrap cuttings in damp paper towelling, building the wrap like papier mache until there is complete coverage >> then seal the wrapped cuttings in 2 mil plastic bags >> then place package in cold storage as close to 0 degrees Centigrade as possible.
    --- anything above MINUS 5 degrees is satisfactory.
     
    Alternatively the packages can be buried about 50 cm deep in the garden --- but by the time cuttings are taken in the fall, the soil is generally frozen ---- so some serious forward planning/ excavation and warm soil storage for hole filling is called for.
     
    Peter Salonius
     
    (Purveyor of grape wood cuttings in late fall)

    ==========================================================

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: vnefv at brant.net
    To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
    Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:28:17 -0500
    Subject: [Growwine] treatments for vine cuttings
    I would like to ask growwiners about how they care for cuttings in respect to prevention/management of mildew and spider mites.
    Phil Ryan
    Simcoe Ont



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From petersalonius at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  4 07:52:19 2008
From: petersalonius at hotmail.com (peter salonius)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:52:19 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <009501c84ecb$49f13010$43e88bcf@mycomputer>
References: <000a01c84bcd$5de35ea0$6500a8c0@D331RW21>
	<4AB172A8-00F2-446D-9310-9B34FFFB9341@hardygrapes.com> 
	<009501c84ecb$49f13010$43e88bcf@mycomputer>
Message-ID: <BAY136-W13D4CD459AD59A11E2DE67A94C0@phx.gbl>


When cuttings are stored cold enough -- they may acquire a little bit of surface mould/fungal growth, but it is not pathogenic ----- generally the more you interfere with chemicals when they are not necessary / the more trouble you get into.
 
I'm put in mind of a friend in Michigan who was planting walnut trees: he complained about the cost of the sprayer 
he was going to buy ///// when asked why he was buying the sprayer ---
-- he replied "Well you have to spray them, don't you?"
 
Peter Salonius====================================================================================


From: vnefv at brant.netTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:13:53 -0500Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings



Mark, Ralph & Peter;
I had no idea that chinosol had those effects.I have used it and been disappointed with cutting/grafting success at times.
 
Do you have any advice on the use of Captan?
 
Peter, I am storing my cuttings as you recommend until I'm ready to grow them.
 
Phil RyanSimcoe Ont

----- Original Message ----- . 
From: Mark Hart 
To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
Ralph, 

I believe the label on Chinosol suggests a 30 hour soak/rinse to remove the chemical.  It has a greater (negative) effect on graft take than on rooting.

Mark Hart

On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Ralph Walton2 wrote:



You should also be aware that some suppliers (CFIA in particular) use Chinosol Fungicide (8-hydroxy quinoline sulfate) and in previous years Captan (ethyl mercaptan or 1H-isoindole-1,3(2H)-dione) on their shipped cuttings. These should be soaked for a couple of hours and the water discarded then again in a fresh soak for several more hours before setting into rooting boxes or what ever you are using. The Chinosol can inhibit budding.
 
Ralph Walton
 
-----Original Message-----From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of peter saloniusSent: December 31, 2007 4:41 AMTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comSubject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
 
Biological activity, including mildew (mold) growth, insect (or mite) activity AND respiration of stored sugars by cuttings (weakening them) all increase as temperature rises /// I wrap cuttings in damp paper towelling, building the wrap like papier mache until there is complete coverage >> then seal the wrapped cuttings in 2 mil plastic bags >> then place package in cold storage as close to 0 degrees Centigrade as possible.--- anything above MINUS 5 degrees is satisfactory. Alternatively the packages can be buried about 50 cm deep in the garden --- but by the time cuttings are taken in the fall, the soil is generally frozen ---- so some serious forward planning/ excavation and warm soil storage for hole filling is called for. Peter Salonius (Purveyor of grape wood cuttings in late fall)==========================================================



From: vnefv at brant.netTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comDate: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:28:17 -0500Subject: [Growwine] treatments for vine cuttings

I would like to ask growwiners about how they care for cuttings in respect to prevention/management of mildew and spider mites.

Phil Ryan

Simcoe Ont
 



HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit asksanta.ca to learn more!_______________________________________________Growwine mailing listGrowwine at littlefatwino.comhttp://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine



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From scott.dolson at sympatico.ca  Fri Jan  4 08:34:09 2008
From: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca (Scott Dolson)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:34:09 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
In-Reply-To: <004901c84e95$a4720a90$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
References: <004901c84e95$a4720a90$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
Message-ID: <477E35D1.603@sympatico.ca>

Hello Vernon;

This is an amended follow-up to your email...sorry, I forgot to send it 
to the group.

Yes... I like the 'Cold Stabilized' picture... the snow says it 
all....very cold!!

I have some rhubarb wine that I made last summer, and it has not 
stabilized as yet... but similar to some vinifera, I have read where, 
without chemical or other additives (egg white, bentonite) it can take 
several years for a red Bordeaux type to clear. Of course a fruit wine 
may not last this long until cleared... although there is a fellow local 
to me whom claims to have 10 year old apple wine. So, who knows?

EC 1118 the 'Killer Yeast' and R2 are the two yeast choices that have 
been referred to me by Terry Raynor. (Terry is an acclaimed chemist and 
wine maker...and could add a whole chapter to this subject). These two 
yeasts are typically used for ice wines and EC 1118 is of particular 
assistance in restarting a stuck fermentation. You may also wish to add 
some 'Ferm Aid' to assist with the initial fermentation start-up and 
half way through the fermentation add 'Go Ferm' to assist with the 
nutrient requirements of the yeast... I am not an expert on this, but it 
seems that 'Ferm Aid' and 'Go Ferm' supply a nutrient mix that aids the 
yeasts abilities to break down and utilize strong concentrations of 
sugar. I am sure there are others in the group that may add further 
insight/info.

Regarding cold stabilization; you may have to leave the wine in this 
stage for more than a few days... maybe two weeks or more if you can... 
and keep them covered so that the sunlight does not bleach the colour 
out of your wine.


Gotta go Vernon... I am getting kicked off the computer.

Best of luck
Scott

Larry Paterson wrote:
> Vernon  I tried and tried but could only get two of the pictures 
> online (the others opened but nothing was there).  sorry.
>  
> http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg
>  
> http://littlefatwino.com/temp2.jpg
>  
> Lardy
>  
> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)
>  
> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
>  
>  
>
>  
> *From: *Vernon Speer <vspeer at mchsi.com <mailto:vspeer at mchsi.com>>
> *Date: *January 2, 2008 10:57:11 AM CST
> *To: *scott.dolson at sympatico.ca <mailto:scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>, 
> growwine at littlefatwino.com <mailto:growwine at littlefatwino.com>
> *Subject: **Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree*
>
> Scott,
>
> I've got a test going...
>
> A little background. I'm in the middle of Missouri's orchard 
> area...the top end of the Ozarks...lots of grapes, apples and peach. I 
> talked with an orchard owner two years ago and "reserved" a tree. He 
> sold the orchard and my agreement went by the way...so I made an 
> agreement with the new owner...we had a late Spring frost and very few 
> apples...
>
> But...
>
> I've got about a gallon semi-working. I haven't found a yeast that 
> will handle it without sticking...and I've pretty much run the rack on 
> types. Any suggestions from the guys up there that do this sort of thing?
>
> I have a pretty concentrated mix so not really sure how much alcohol I 
> have in the wine...and it's not clearing so I may have to fin and 
> fortify...but that kinda ruins the test. Let's stay in touch and see 
> if we can come up with some answers.
>
> Here's a picture taken a day apart of three jugs on my deck I was 
> cold?stabilizing...black berry, strawberry and cranberry...I think 
> they're?stabilized!
>
> Vernon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:
>
> Hello Vernon;
>
> Sadly, I am 0 for 1 on this trial.
>
> About a week ago, I had pressed approximately? 5 gallon pail of frozen 
> (-12C) apples, wizzened and not very easy to secrete fluids... I only 
> collected about 600 milliliters. So, really not enough apple mass to 
> create enough liquid volume for this project.
>
> I had also ordered some R2 yeast from two different sources, and 
> neither has arrived to this date... no doubt, Xmas mail complications 
> ... hence I have taken the 600 ml of liquid gold and added this to the 
> pressed apple pulp...plus about 20 liters of well water and 4kg each 
> of liquefied dextrose & cane sugar, plus EC 1118 yeast.
>
> Very late harvest apple wine???
>
> Next year...trial #2.
>
> Scott
>
> Vernon Speer wrote:
>> Scott, like Terry, I'd be very interested in your project. I'm 0 for 
>> 3 on attempts at Apple Ice Wine and would welcome any posting you 
>> would care to share with us.
>>
>> Vernon
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:
>>
>> Hello Terry;
>>
>> No I don't. I live on a farm where there are about 30-40 old 
>> style/heritage type apple tress. I kind of reasoned that years ago 
>> some old farmer planted all these trees to make a cider. Last spring 
>> I started to document certain aspects of each with hopes of 
>> identifying these... but this is quite a chore. This particular tree 
>> retains the apples for the longest period of time, so this year 
>> (maybe) with the 100 M1-11 apple rootstock I purchased last year, I 
>> will do some grafting...however, I may concentrate with scions from 
>> this particular tree.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> Terry Rayner wrote:
>>> Scott, do you know what type of apples that these are by any chance.
>>>
>>> Terry
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
>>> To: "Growwine List" <growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:08 PM
>>> Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> The picture below is actually (temporarily only, large file) online at
>>>>
>>>> http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Scott
>>>>
>>>> Lardy
>>>>
>>>> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
>>>> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Scott Dolson" <scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>
>>>> To: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:03 AM
>>>> Subject: Apple Ice Wine Tree
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Larry;
>>>>
>>>> Here is a picture of my "Apple Ice Wine" ... still on the tree. This is 
>>>> from the ice storm earlier this week. If you want to share this with the 
>>>> group... please do so.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Growwine mailing list
>>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
>>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>>>>     
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Growwine mailing list
>>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
>>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>>>
>>>   
>> _______________________________________________
>> Growwine mailing list
>> Growwine at littlefatwino.com <mailto:Growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com <mailto:Growwine at littlefatwino.com>
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lardy,
>
> Thanks, sorry I thought I was sending this direct to Scott.
>
> Vernon
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Vernon Speer <vspeer at mchsi.com>
> Date: January 2, 2008 10:57:11 AM CST
> To: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca, growwine at littlefatwino.com
> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
>
> Scott,
>
> I've got a test going...
>
> A little background. I'm in the middle of Missouri's orchard 
> area...the top end of the Ozarks...lots of grapes, apples and peach. 
> I talked with an orchard owner two years ago and "reserved" a tree. 
> He sold the orchard and my agreement went by the way...so I made an 
> agreement with the new owner...we had a late Spring frost and very 
> few apples...
>
> But...
>
> I've got about a gallon semi-working. I haven't found a yeast that 
> will handle it without sticking...and I've pretty much run the rack 
> on types. Any suggestions from the guys up there that do this sort of 
> thing?
>
> I have a pretty concentrated mix so not really sure how much alcohol 
> I have in the wine...and it's not clearing so I may have to fin and 
> fortify...but that kinda ruins the test. Let's stay in touch and see 
> if we can come up with some answers.
>
> Here's a picture taken a day apart of three jugs on my deck I was 
> cold stabilizing...black berry, strawberry and cranberry...I think 
> they're stabilized!
>
> Vernon
> ??
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:
>
> Hello Vernon;
>
> Sadly, I am 0 for 1 on this trial.
>
> About a week ago, I had pressed approximately  5 gallon pail of 
> frozen (-12C) apples, wizzened and not very easy to secrete fluids... 
> I only collected about 600 milliliters. So, really not enough apple 
> mass to create enough liquid volume for this project.
>
> I had also ordered some R2 yeast from two different sources, and 
> neither has arrived to this date... no doubt, Xmas mail 
> complications ... hence I have taken the 600 ml of liquid gold and 
> added this to the pressed apple pulp...plus about 20 liters of well 
> water and 4kg each of liquefied dextrose & cane sugar, plus EC 1118 
> yeast.
>
> Very late harvest apple wine???
>
> Next year...trial #2.
>
> Scott
>
> Vernon Speer wrote:
> >
> > Scott, like Terry, I'd be very interested in your project. I'm 0 
> > for 3 on attempts at Apple Ice Wine and would welcome any posting 
> > you would care to share with us.
> >
> > Vernon
> >
> > On Dec 6, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:
> >
> > Hello Terry;
> >
> > No I don't. I live on a farm where there are about 30-40 old style/
> > heritage type apple tress. I kind of reasoned that years ago some 
> > old farmer planted all these trees to make a cider. Last spring I 
> > started to document certain aspects of each with hopes of 
> > identifying these... but this is quite a chore. This particular 
> > tree retains the apples for the longest period of time, so this 
> > year (maybe) with the 100 M1-11 apple rootstock I purchased last 
> > year, I will do some grafting...however, I may concentrate with 
> > scions from this particular tree.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > Terry Rayner wrote:
> >>
> >> Scott, do you know what type of apples that these are by any chance.
> >>
> >> Terry
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
> >> To: "Growwine List" <growwine at littlefatwino.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:08 PM
> >> Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> The picture below is actually (temporarily only, large file) 
> >>> online at
> >>>
> >>> http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Scott
> >>>
> >>> Lardy
> >>>
> >>> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
> >>> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels 
> >>> Critic)
> >>>
> >>> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Scott Dolson" <scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>
> >>> To: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:03 AM
> >>> Subject: Apple Ice Wine Tree
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hello Larry;
> >>>
> >>> Here is a picture of my "Apple Ice Wine" ... still on the tree. 
> >>> This is
> >>> from the ice storm earlier this week. If you want to share this 
> >>> with the
> >>> group... please do so.
> >>>
> >>> Scott
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>   
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From smelchis at maine.rr.com  Fri Jan  4 08:49:47 2008
From: smelchis at maine.rr.com (Steve Melchiskey)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>

I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury  
the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or  
in my unheated barn. I always have good luck. The sand seems to  
discourage mold and the cuttings come out and root very well.
best,
steve
maine coast vineyards

On Dec 31, 2007, at 12:04 PM, George Sansom wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> Would you mind going one step further.  When do you dig them up and
> how do you get them started.
>
> My problem has always been with them dying off after they have  
> sprouted.
>
> Thanks,
>
> George
>
>
> On 12/31/07, peter salonius <petersalonius at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Biological activity, including mildew (mold) growth, insect (or mite)
>> activity AND respiration of stored sugars by cuttings (weakening  
>> them) all
>> increase as temperature rises ///
>>
>> I wrap cuttings in damp paper towelling, building the wrap like  
>> papier mache
>> until there is complete coverage >> then seal the wrapped cuttings  
>> in 2 mil
>> plastic bags >> then place package in cold storage as close to 0  
>> degrees
>> Centigrade as possible.
>> --- anything above MINUS 5 degrees is satisfactory.
>>
>> Alternatively the packages can be buried about 50 cm deep in the  
>> garden ---
>> but by the time cuttings are taken in the fall, the soil is  
>> generally frozen
>> ---- so some serious forward planning/ excavation and warm soil  
>> storage for
>> hole filling is called for.
>>
>> Peter Salonius
>>
>> (Purveyor of grape wood cuttings in late fall)
>> ==========================================================
>>
>>
>> From: vnefv at brant.netTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comDate: Sun, 30  
>> Dec 2007
>> 11:28:17 -0500Subject: [Growwine] treatments for vine cuttings
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to ask growwiners about how they care for cuttings in  
>> respect
>> to prevention/management of mildew and spider mites.
>> Phil Ryan
>> Simcoe Ont
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Use fowl language with Chicktionary. Click here to start playing!
>> http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine


From redwine at charter.net  Fri Jan  4 08:47:32 2008
From: redwine at charter.net (Rob McDowell)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:47:32 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Do any new-generation hybrids use Zweigelt?
In-Reply-To: <497636.6029.qm@web56801.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FEEDJLPKILCDJKLHFAJMOEDFCNAA.redwine@charter.net>

Hi Paul,

I've no knowledge of any crosses but it's a good idea.  More to the point,
it strikes me that your question is best answered by seeing more local,
private breeders that work from exactly your inspiration.  A cold hardy,
pistillate seed parent such as St. Pepin, ES 283, 9-6-37, 2-4-7, or the
Kuhlmann Pinard might be an easy start (no emasculating).  The notion that
grape breeding needs to be done by professionals, in a university setting,
with a large budget is not necessarily to the advantage of the grape world.
As I understand it, the chance of a successful cross that is well adapted to
a specific region and use is largely a numbers game, given a good set of
parents.  More people making crosses in more regions is absolutely to the
advantage of everyone.  Go for it.

Best for a new year,

Rob McDowell
Purple Gate Vineyard
Plattsburgh, NY
44.77 N  -73.42 W
  -----Original Message-----
  From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com
[mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com]On Behalf Of Paul Bulas
  Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:27 PM
  To: Growwine
  Subject: [Growwine] Do any new-generation hybrids use Zweigelt?


  I don't think I've heard of any such crossings, but does anyone know if
any new-generation hybrids being tested have any Zweigelt in their makeup?
I have read that Zweigelt is quite winter hardy and disease resistant for a
vinifera, and true Zweigelt does make a very nice table wine in Ontario.
How about using it for breeding with riparia/rupestris complex hybrids,
along the lines of how Blattner used Cabernet, to produce grapes with the
sort of fine tannins and flavours that viniferaphiles crave?

  Anyone know anything about such possible crosses?

  Cheers
  Paul


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo!
Answers.
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From scott.dolson at sympatico.ca  Fri Jan  4 09:06:31 2008
From: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca (Scott Dolson)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:06:31 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <BAY136-W13D4CD459AD59A11E2DE67A94C0@phx.gbl>
References: <000a01c84bcd$5de35ea0$6500a8c0@D331RW21>	<4AB172A8-00F2-446D-9310-9B34FFFB9341@hardygrapes.com>
	<009501c84ecb$49f13010$43e88bcf@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W13D4CD459AD59A11E2DE67A94C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <477E3D67.2000001@sympatico.ca>

Hello Peter & Ryan;

Per Lon Rombough's book; 'The Grape Grower; A Guide to Organic 
Viticulture' (October 2002) page 155, item 5 under, " Possible causes of 
dead cuttings"; Lon suggests to rid disease organisms, use a 
disinfectant 5% chlorine bleach solution wash, followed by a rinse in 
clean water.

This book is an excellent resource that I recommend to novice and 
experienced viticulturists.

I think Peter and Lon went to the same 'schools of thought'... because 
every thing they say makes sense!

Scott

peter salonius wrote:
> When cuttings are stored cold enough -- they may acquire a little bit 
> of surface mould/fungal growth, but it is not pathogenic ----- 
> generally the more you interfere with chemicals when they are not 
> necessary / the more trouble you get into.
>  
> I'm put in mind of a friend in Michigan who was planting walnut trees: 
> he complained about the cost of the sprayer
> he was going to buy ///// when asked why he was buying the sprayer ---
> -- he replied "Well you have to spray them, don't you?"
>  
> Peter Salonius
> ====================================================================================
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     From: vnefv at brant.net
>     To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
>     Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:13:53 -0500
>     Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>
>     Mark, Ralph & Peter;
>     I had no idea that chinosol had those effects.I have used it and
>     been disappointed with cutting/grafting success at times.
>      
>     Do you have any advice on the use of Captan?
>      
>     Peter, I am storing my cuttings as you recommend until I'm ready
>     to grow them.
>      
>     Phil Ryan
>     Simcoe Ont
>
>         ----- Original Message ----- .
>         *From:* Mark Hart <mailto:markhart at hardygrapes.com>
>         *To:* growwine at littlefatwino.com
>         <mailto:growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, January 01, 2008 4:12 PM
>         *Subject:* Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>
>         Ralph,
>
>         I believe the label on Chinosol suggests a 30 hour soak/rinse
>         to remove the chemical.  It has a greater (negative) effect on
>         graft take than on rooting.
>
>         Mark Hart
>         On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Ralph Walton2 wrote:
>
>             You should also be aware that some suppliers (CFIA in
>             particular) use Chinosol Fungicide (8-hydroxy quinoline
>             sulfate) and in previous years Captan (ethyl mercaptan or
>             1H-isoindole-1,3(2H)-dione) on their shipped cuttings.
>             These should be soaked for a couple of hours and the water
>             discarded then again in a fresh soak for several more
>             hours before setting into rooting boxes or what ever you
>             are using. The Chinosol can inhibit budding.
>
>              
>
>             Ralph Walton
>
>              
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>             *From:* growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com
>             <mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com>
>             [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] *On Behalf
>             Of *peter salonius
>             *Sent:* December 31, 2007 4:41 AM
>             *To:* growwine at littlefatwino.com
>             <mailto:growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>             *Subject:* [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>
>              
>
>             Biological activity, including mildew (mold) growth,
>             insect (or mite) activity AND respiration of stored sugars
>             by cuttings (weakening them) all increase as temperature
>             rises ///
>              
>             I wrap cuttings in damp paper towelling, building the wrap
>             like papier mache until there is complete coverage >> then
>             seal the wrapped cuttings in 2 mil plastic bags >>
>             then place package in cold storage as close to 0 degrees
>             Centigrade as possible.
>             --- anything above MINUS 5 degrees is satisfactory.
>              
>             Alternatively the packages can be buried about 50 cm deep
>             in the garden --- but by the time cuttings are taken in
>             the fall, the soil is generally frozen ---- so some
>             serious forward planning/ excavation and warm soil storage
>             for hole filling is called for.
>              
>             Peter Salonius
>              
>             (Purveyor of grape wood cuttings in late fall)
>
>             ==========================================================
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             From: vnefv at brant.net <mailto:vnefv at brant.net>
>             To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
>             <mailto:growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>             Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:28:17 -0500
>             Subject: [Growwine] treatments for vine cuttings
>             I would like to ask growwiners about how they care for
>             cuttings in respect to prevention/management of mildew and
>             spider mites.
>             Phil Ryan
>             Simcoe Ont
>
>              
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email
>             Santa! Visit asksanta.ca to learn more!
>             <http://asksanta.ca/?icid=SANTAENCA005>
>             _______________________________________________
>             Growwine mailing list
>             Growwine at littlefatwino.com <mailto:Growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>             http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Growwine mailing list
>         Growwine at littlefatwino.com
>         http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>         No virus found in this incoming message.
>         Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>         Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release
>         Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your chance to win great prizes with TELUS and Windows Live Messenger 
> for Mobile. Click here for more information! 
> <http://www.telusmobility.com/on/wweb/instant_messaging.shtml>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>   
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From vitiferas at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  4 10:32:27 2008
From: vitiferas at hotmail.com (Jean Houle)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:32:27 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com> 
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>


Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature does that sand box go down to?Jean Houle Charlemagne Quebec Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?, et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait." Jacques Puisais "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other adaptive hybrids." Elmer Swenson  
> From: smelchis at maine.rr.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings> > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or > in my unheated barn......  
_________________________________________________________________
Use fowl language with Chicktionary. Click here to start playing!
http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig
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From pabls at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 15:39:24 2008
From: pabls at yahoo.com (Paul Bulas)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:39:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
Message-ID: <412252.78914.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

To anyone's knowledge, have hops (Humulus lupulus) ever been used in grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.


      Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
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From winemaker at kacaba.com  Fri Jan  4 17:06:23 2008
From: winemaker at kacaba.com (John Tummon)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:06:23 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
In-Reply-To: <412252.78914.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006701c84f1e$0b554550$6500a8c0@Winery>

The LCBO has a lot of new wines in tetrapaks now. There is one called French
Rabbit. It might have a few hops in it.
 
John 
 
 

  _____  

From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com
[mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bulas
Sent: January 4, 2008 3:39 PM
To: Growwine
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


To anyone's knowledge, have hops (Humulus lupulus) ever been used in grape
wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any
preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, they
might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.
 
 
 

  _____  

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people.
<http://ca.answers.yahoo.com> Go to Yahoo! Answers. 
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From smelchis at maine.rr.com  Fri Jan  4 17:21:32 2008
From: smelchis at maine.rr.com (Steve Melchiskey)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:21:32 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>

Jean,
I take cuttings in late February so the temps aren't extremely  
low....I'll say down into the upper teens, at worst, and then into  
the 30s and 40s....yesterday I woke up to -3/F and it "warmed up" to  
7F by sundown....this morning it was -10F....but these are January  
temps for coastal/semi-inland maine. By February, things are a bit  
better. I wouldn't prune now for all the tea in Boston...
best,
steve
maine coast vineyards
On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Jean Houle wrote:

> Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature does  
> that sand box go down to?
>
> Jean Houle
> Charlemagne Quebec
> Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada
> Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a
> Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec
>
> "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?,  
> et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait."
> Jacques Puisais
>
> "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other  
> adaptive hybrids."
> Elmer Swenson
>
>
> > From: smelchis at maine.rr.com
> > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500
> > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
> > Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
> >
> > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury
> > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or
> > in my unheated barn......
>
>
> HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit  
> asksanta.ca to learn more!
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine

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From gtking at sympatico.ca  Fri Jan  4 17:28:08 2008
From: gtking at sympatico.ca (Gary King)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:28:08 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Fw:  Hops in ... wine?
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP1512080A2618F617ECA178A94C0@CEZ.ICE>

Was wondering if cough medicine would smooth the finish  of some reds? perhaps some antihistimine effect as a bonus? 

Happy New year to you growers and makers ; movers and shakers 


from a lurker who follows the discussions with keen interest.

amateur winemaker - 
Burlington, Ontario 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Tummon 
To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


The LCBO has a lot of new wines in tetrapaks now. There is one called French Rabbit. It might have a few hops in it.

John 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bulas
Sent: January 4, 2008 3:39 PM
To: Growwine
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


To anyone's knowledge, have hops (Humulus lupulus) ever been used in grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Growwine mailing list
Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
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From a-rusvik at online.no  Fri Jan  4 17:30:44 2008
From: a-rusvik at online.no (Arild Syversen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:30:44 +0100
Subject: [Growwine] list
Message-ID: <01ea01c84f21$73eac560$0a01a8c0@Rusvik>

Hello.

I want to be taken off the list.

Arild Syversen.
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From laura-sabourin at sympatico.ca  Fri Jan  4 17:36:04 2008
From: laura-sabourin at sympatico.ca (Laura)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:36:04 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
References: <006701c84f1e$0b554550$6500a8c0@Winery>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP095CA27B4E94D543F5D47EE84C0@CEZ.ICE>

groannnnn :-) 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Tummon 
  To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


  The LCBO has a lot of new wines in tetrapaks now. There is one called French Rabbit. It might have a few hops in it.

  John 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bulas
  Sent: January 4, 2008 3:39 PM
  To: Growwine
  Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


  To anyone's knowledge, have hops (Humulus lupulus) ever been used in grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  Growwine mailing list
  Growwine at littlefatwino.com
  http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
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From terry.rayner at sympatico.ca  Fri Jan  4 18:51:17 2008
From: terry.rayner at sympatico.ca (Terry Rayner)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 18:51:17 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
References: <004901c84e95$a4720a90$c6d1eb18@YOUR382F8BB83C>
	<477E35D1.603@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP061C81AC95361639894E5DE44C0@CEZ.ICE>

Hey Scott, if memory serves me right, the typical temp below the snow level is usually pretty constant at about 2C, which is more then enough to cold stabilize a wine. It's the exposed temps about the snow where wind chill can have an impact that can be the issue.

Actually for an icewine you want to use a yeast that's not likely to ferment to high alcohol content in which case R2 would be a candidate as would the former Epernay 2 but EC-1118 could get to more alcohol then you wanted. EC-1118 is good for restarting a stuck fermentation as you pointed out.

There is difference in the type of nutrient that Go-Ferm and Fermaid K provide. Go-Ferm is more organic while Fermiad K contains a mix of inorganic and organic nutrients. Both of these can be used with DAP in the course of a more conventional table wine fermentation to increase the yeast viability and sugar conversion. Typical use is Go-Ferm with the yeast starter, DAP shortly after the addition of the yeast starter and Fermaid K about 1/3 rd of the way through the active fermentation.

Terry
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott Dolson 
  To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree


  Hello Vernon;

  This is an amended follow-up to your email...sorry, I forgot to send it to the group.

  Yes... I like the 'Cold Stabilized' picture... the snow says it all....very cold!!

  I have some rhubarb wine that I made last summer, and it has not stabilized as yet... but similar to some vinifera, I have read where, without chemical or other additives (egg white, bentonite) it can take several years for a red Bordeaux type to clear. Of course a fruit wine may not last this long until cleared... although there is a fellow local to me whom claims to have 10 year old apple wine. So, who knows?

  EC 1118 the 'Killer Yeast' and R2 are the two yeast choices that have been referred to me by Terry Raynor. (Terry is an acclaimed chemist and wine maker...and could add a whole chapter to this subject). These two yeasts are typically used for ice wines and EC 1118 is of particular assistance in restarting a stuck fermentation. You may also wish to add some 'Ferm Aid' to assist with the initial fermentation start-up and half way through the fermentation add 'Go Ferm' to assist with the nutrient requirements of the yeast... I am not an expert on this, but it seems that 'Ferm Aid' and 'Go Ferm' supply a nutrient mix that aids the yeasts abilities to break down and utilize strong concentrations of sugar. I am sure there are others in the group that may add further insight/info.

  Regarding cold stabilization; you may have to leave the wine in this stage for more than a few days... maybe two weeks or more if you can... and keep them covered so that the sunlight does not bleach the colour out of your wine.


  Gotta go Vernon... I am getting kicked off the computer.

  Best of luck
  Scott

  Larry Paterson wrote: 
    Vernon  I tried and tried but could only get two of the pictures online (the others opened but nothing was there).  sorry.

    http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg

    http://littlefatwino.com/temp2.jpg

    Lardy

    Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
    (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

    http://www.littlefatwino.com/



     
    From: Vernon Speer <vspeer at mchsi.com>
    Date: January 2, 2008 10:57:11 AM CST
    To: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca, growwine at littlefatwino.com
    Subject: Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree


    Scott, 


    I've got a test going...


    A little background. I'm in the middle of Missouri's orchard area...the top end of the Ozarks...lots of grapes, apples and peach. I talked with an orchard owner two years ago and "reserved" a tree. He sold the orchard and my agreement went by the way...so I made an agreement with the new owner...we had a late Spring frost and very few apples...


    But...


    I've got about a gallon semi-working. I haven't found a yeast that will handle it without sticking...and I've pretty much run the rack on types. Any suggestions from the guys up there that do this sort of thing?


    I have a pretty concentrated mix so not really sure how much alcohol I have in the wine...and it's not clearing so I may have to fin and fortify...but that kinda ruins the test. Let's stay in touch and see if we can come up with some answers.


    Here's a picture taken a day apart of three jugs on my deck I was cold?stabilizing...black berry, strawberry and cranberry...I think they're?stabilized!


    Vernon


----------------------------------------------------------------------------





    On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:

    Hello Vernon;

    Sadly, I am 0 for 1 on this trial. 

    About a week ago, I had pressed approximately? 5 gallon pail of frozen (-12C) apples, wizzened and not very easy to secrete fluids... I only collected about 600 milliliters. So, really not enough apple mass to create enough liquid volume for this project. 

    I had also ordered some R2 yeast from two different sources, and neither has arrived to this date... no doubt, Xmas mail complications ... hence I have taken the 600 ml of liquid gold and added this to the pressed apple pulp...plus about 20 liters of well water and 4kg each of liquefied dextrose & cane sugar, plus EC 1118 yeast.

    Very late harvest apple wine???

    Next year...trial #2.

    Scott

    Vernon Speer wrote: 
      Scott, like Terry, I'd be very interested in your project. I'm 0 for 3 on attempts at Apple Ice Wine and would welcome any posting you would care to share with us. 


      Vernon


      On Dec 6, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:

      Hello Terry;

      No I don't. I live on a farm where there are about 30-40 old style/heritage type apple tress. I kind of reasoned that years ago some old farmer planted all these trees to make a cider. Last spring I started to document certain aspects of each with hopes of identifying these... but this is quite a chore. This particular tree retains the apples for the longest period of time, so this year (maybe) with the 100 M1-11 apple rootstock I purchased last year, I will do some grafting...however, I may concentrate with scions from this particular tree.

      Scott

      Terry Rayner wrote: 
Scott, do you know what type of apples that these are by any chance.

Terry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
To: "Growwine List" <growwine at littlefatwino.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree


  The picture below is actually (temporarily only, large file) online at

http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg

Thanks Scott

Lardy

Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
(Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels Critic)

http://www.littlefatwino.com/


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Dolson" <scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>
To: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:03 AM
Subject: Apple Ice Wine Tree


Hello Larry;

Here is a picture of my "Apple Ice Wine" ... still on the tree. This is 
from the ice storm earlier this week. If you want to share this with the 
group... please do so.

Scott

_______________________________________________
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  _______________________________________________
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lardy,

    Thanks, sorry I thought I was sending this direct to Scott.

    Vernon

    Begin forwarded message:

    From: Vernon Speer <vspeer at mchsi.com>
    Date: January 2, 2008 10:57:11 AM CST
    To: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca, growwine at littlefatwino.com
    Subject: Re: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree

    Scott,

    I've got a test going...

    A little background. I'm in the middle of Missouri's orchard  
    area...the top end of the Ozarks...lots of grapes, apples and peach.  
    I talked with an orchard owner two years ago and "reserved" a tree.  
    He sold the orchard and my agreement went by the way...so I made an  
    agreement with the new owner...we had a late Spring frost and very  
    few apples...

    But...

    I've got about a gallon semi-working. I haven't found a yeast that  
    will handle it without sticking...and I've pretty much run the rack  
    on types. Any suggestions from the guys up there that do this sort of  
    thing?

    I have a pretty concentrated mix so not really sure how much alcohol  
    I have in the wine...and it's not clearing so I may have to fin and  
    fortify...but that kinda ruins the test. Let's stay in touch and see  
    if we can come up with some answers.

    Here's a picture taken a day apart of three jugs on my deck I was  
    cold stabilizing...black berry, strawberry and cranberry...I think  
    they're stabilized!

    Vernon
    ??


    On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:

    Hello Vernon;

    Sadly, I am 0 for 1 on this trial.

    About a week ago, I had pressed approximately  5 gallon pail of  
    frozen (-12C) apples, wizzened and not very easy to secrete fluids...  
    I only collected about 600 milliliters. So, really not enough apple  
    mass to create enough liquid volume for this project.

    I had also ordered some R2 yeast from two different sources, and  
    neither has arrived to this date... no doubt, Xmas mail  
    complications ... hence I have taken the 600 ml of liquid gold and  
    added this to the pressed apple pulp...plus about 20 liters of well  
    water and 4kg each of liquefied dextrose & cane sugar, plus EC 1118  
    yeast.

    Very late harvest apple wine???

    Next year...trial #2.

    Scott

    Vernon Speer wrote:
    >
    > Scott, like Terry, I'd be very interested in your project. I'm 0  
    > for 3 on attempts at Apple Ice Wine and would welcome any posting  
    > you would care to share with us.
    >
    > Vernon
    >
    > On Dec 6, 2007, at 5:49 PM, Scott Dolson wrote:
    >
    > Hello Terry;
    >
    > No I don't. I live on a farm where there are about 30-40 old style/ 
    > heritage type apple tress. I kind of reasoned that years ago some  
    > old farmer planted all these trees to make a cider. Last spring I  
    > started to document certain aspects of each with hopes of  
    > identifying these... but this is quite a chore. This particular  
    > tree retains the apples for the longest period of time, so this  
    > year (maybe) with the 100 M1-11 apple rootstock I purchased last  
    > year, I will do some grafting...however, I may concentrate with  
    > scions from this particular tree.
    >
    > Scott
    >
    > Terry Rayner wrote:
    >>
    >> Scott, do you know what type of apples that these are by any chance.
    >>
    >> Terry
    >> ----- Original Message -----
    >> From: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
    >> To: "Growwine List" <growwine at littlefatwino.com>
    >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:08 PM
    >> Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Apple Ice Wine Tree
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> The picture below is actually (temporarily only, large file)  
    >>> online at
    >>>
    >>> http://littlefatwino.com/temp1.jpg
    >>>
    >>> Thanks Scott
    >>>
    >>> Lardy
    >>>
    >>> Larry Paterson, lfw, rd, adcc
    >>> (Little Fat Wino, Roving Drunk, Alcohol Distribution Channels  
    >>> Critic)
    >>>
    >>> http://www.littlefatwino.com/
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>> From: "Scott Dolson" <scott.dolson at sympatico.ca>
    >>> To: "Larry Paterson" <littlefatwino1 at cogeco.ca>
    >>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:03 AM
    >>> Subject: Apple Ice Wine Tree
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Hello Larry;
    >>>
    >>> Here is a picture of my "Apple Ice Wine" ... still on the tree.  
    >>> This is
    >>> from the ice storm earlier this week. If you want to share this  
    >>> with the
    >>> group... please do so.
    >>>
    >>> Scott 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Growwine mailing list
Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From vitiferas at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  4 19:58:38 2008
From: vitiferas at hotmail.com (Jean Houle)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 19:58:38 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Fw:  Hops in ... wine?
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP1512080A2618F617ECA178A94C0@CEZ.ICE>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP1512080A2618F617ECA178A94C0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <BAY114-W2916BDDF51C37015148005AE4D0@phx.gbl>


Well after, burnt sulphur, staves of oak and bark from same as bottle stoppers maybe it's time hops get a chance to reconsider it's alliances. Dont knock it till youve tried it.
A great year ahead to all growiners.Jean Houle Charlemagne Quebec Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?, et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait." Jacques Puisais "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other adaptive hybrids." Elmer Swenson  
  


From: gtking at sympatico.caTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:28:08 -0500Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Hops in ... wine?




Was wondering if cough medicine would smooth the finish  of some reds? perhaps some antihistimine effect as a bonus? 
 
Happy New year to you growers and makers ; movers and shakers 
 
 
from a lurker who follows the discussions with keen interest.
 
amateur winemaker - 
Burlington, Ontario 
 
----- Original Message ----- 

From: John Tummon 
To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?

The LCBO has a lot of new wines in tetrapaks now. There is one called French Rabbit. It might have a few hops in it.
 

John 
 
 


From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Paul BulasSent: January 4, 2008 3:39 PMTo: GrowwineSubject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


To anyone's knowledge, have hops (Humulus lupulus) ever been used in grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.
 
 
 

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. 



_______________________________________________Growwine mailing listGrowwine at littlefatwino.comhttp://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
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From rono at mindlinktech.com  Fri Jan  4 23:01:38 2008
From: rono at mindlinktech.com (Ron Olinyk)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 23:01:38 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
In-Reply-To: <006701c84f1e$0b554550$6500a8c0@Winery>
References: <006701c84f1e$0b554550$6500a8c0@Winery>
Message-ID: <477F0122.8060705@mindlinktech.com>

Ha! John, you're so witty. Funniest thing I've heard all year. You 
actually made me waste some good wine trying to laugh and drink at the 
same time. :))


John Tummon wrote:
> The LCBO has a lot of new wines in tetrapaks now. There is one called 
> French Rabbit. It might have a few hops in it.
>  
> John
>  
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com 
> [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Bulas
> *Sent:* January 4, 2008 3:39 PM
> *To:* Growwine
> *Subject:* [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
>
> To anyone's knowledge, have hops (/Humulus lupulus/) ever been used in 
> grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any 
> preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, 
> they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.
>  
>  
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. *Go to 
> Yahoo! Answers.* <http://ca.answers.yahoo.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>   


From petersalonius at hotmail.com  Sat Jan  5 07:39:26 2008
From: petersalonius at hotmail.com (peter salonius)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:39:26 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Additives to wine / STEVIA
In-Reply-To: <BAYC1-PASMTP1512080A2618F617ECA178A94C0@CEZ.ICE>
References: <BAYC1-PASMTP1512080A2618F617ECA178A94C0@CEZ.ICE>
Message-ID: <BAY136-W2FE3E54C9224F8CC6F106A94D0@phx.gbl>


Regarding the possibility of smoothing the finish --- I have a VERY dry, VERY harsh and VERY acidic 2006 blended white wine (at least 25 varieties represented) -------
 
------ we had a discussion about a month ago about STEVIA as a non fermentable sweetener 
 
/// well I purchased a STEVIA extract in 18% alcohol from the local health food store and last night I added ONE DROP of the extract to my standard pour (about 100 ml).
 
WOW, what a difference --- it rendered the wine smoother with a touch of sweetness such that the fruit flavours in the wine were no longer masked by the searing acidity.
 
My daughter who has a pretty good palate said that it no longer tasted like battery acid.
 
The comment (below) about "cough medicine" reminds me of an episode of the TV series NORTHERN EXPOSURE in which a girl was offered a glass of wine from a rare and expensive French vintage /// her response was that it tasted like ROBITUSSIN. 
 
Peter Salonius===================================================================


From: gtking at sympatico.caTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:28:08 -0500Subject: [Growwine] Fw: Hops in ... wine?




Was wondering if cough medicine would smooth the finish  of some reds? perhaps some antihistimine effect as a bonus? 
 
Happy New year to you growers and makers ; movers and shakers 
 
 
from a lurker who follows the discussions with keen interest.
 
amateur winemaker - 
Burlington, Ontario 
 
----- Original Message ----- 

From: John Tummon 
To: growwine at littlefatwino.com 
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?

The LCBO has a lot of new wines in tetrapaks now. There is one called French Rabbit. It might have a few hops in it.
 

John 
 
 


From: growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com [mailto:growwine-bounces at littlefatwino.com] On Behalf Of Paul BulasSent: January 4, 2008 3:39 PMTo: GrowwineSubject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?


To anyone's knowledge, have hops (Humulus lupulus) ever been used in grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.
 
 
 

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. 



_______________________________________________Growwine mailing listGrowwine at littlefatwino.comhttp://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
_________________________________________________________________
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From scott.dolson at sympatico.ca  Sat Jan  5 07:49:36 2008
From: scott.dolson at sympatico.ca (Scott Dolson)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 07:49:36 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
In-Reply-To: <412252.78914.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <412252.78914.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <477F7CE0.4040400@sympatico.ca>

From: http://www.theartofdrink.com/blog/2007/03/how-to-make-vermouth.php

Some common herbs and spices used in vermouth are cloves, cinnamon, 
ginger, star anise, citrus peel, coriander, sage, basil, thyme, 
chamomile, quinine, juniper berries, and _*hops*_. Other herbs like 
gentian, mugwort and wormwood have been used in vermouth to provide some 
bitterness. In reality you can throw anything you like into a vermouth 
and make it unique. You can add flower petals, wild roots or some 
combination of eastern medicinal herbs, because vermouth by nature has a 
slightly medicinal flavour. Another example would be to boil down a cup 
of pinot noir and add that to a sweet vermouth to fortify the wine 
flavour. Just let your imagination run free.

Scott

Paul Bulas wrote:
> To anyone's knowledge, have hops (/Humulus lupulus/) ever been used in 
> grape wine in a similar way as in beer?  Would they offer any 
> preservative/antioxidant benefit to wine?  Given the bitter taste, 
> they might work better in select reds than whites, but who knows.
>  
>  
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. *Go to 
> Yahoo! Answers.* <http://ca.answers.yahoo.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>   
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From petersalonius at hotmail.com  Sat Jan  5 07:51:50 2008
From: petersalonius at hotmail.com (peter salonius)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 08:51:50 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttings
In-Reply-To: <688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl> 
	<688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl>


Steve
 
Your -10F is too close to  -25C at which even moderately hardy varieties such as Marechal foch begin to experience bud damage.
 
We have just had a night at -32C  here so most of the buds above the SNOW LINE on all but the most hardy varieties will be dead or have some damage.
 
I can appreciate you not wanting to prune in this cold weather ---
 
---- however the reason for taking cuttings in late November or early December (after they have achieved some cold hardiness AND are moving toward deep dormancy) is to assure that the buds you are counting on for propagation have not been exposed to bud killing/damageing critical cold temperatures.
 
Peter Salonius
========================================================================================
 


From: smelchis at maine.rr.comDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:21:32 -0500To: growwine at littlefatwino.comSubject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of CuttingsJean, 
I take cuttings in late February so the temps aren't extremely low....I'll say down into the upper teens, at worst, and then into the 30s and 40s....yesterday I woke up to -3/F and it "warmed up" to 7F by sundown....this morning it was -10F....but these are January temps for coastal/semi-inland maine. By February, things are a bit better. I wouldn't prune now for all the tea in Boston...
best,
steve
maine coast vineyards

On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Jean Houle wrote:
Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature does that sand box go down to?Jean Houle Charlemagne Quebec Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?, et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait." Jacques Puisais "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other adaptive hybrids." Elmer Swenson  
> From: smelchis at maine.rr.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings> > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or > in my unheated barn......  

HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit asksanta.ca to learn more! 
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From karen.enright at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Jan  5 09:28:02 2008
From: karen.enright at ns.sympatico.ca (Karen Enright)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:28:02 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttings
In-Reply-To: <BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
	<688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <477F93F2.60108@ns.sympatico.ca>

Peter,

Out of curiosity where are you located.  We're in southwest Nova Scotia 
and so far this has been the worst winter in a couple of decades.  
Thankfully, we have great snow cover!

Karen Enright

peter salonius wrote:
> Steve
>  
> Your -10F is too close to  -25C at which even moderately hardy 
> varieties such as Marechal foch begin to experience bud damage.
>  
> We have just had a night at -32C  here so most of the buds above the 
> SNOW LINE on all but the most hardy varieties will be dead or have 
> some damage.
>  
> I can appreciate you not wanting to prune in this cold weather ---
>  
> ---- however the reason for taking cuttings in late November or early 
> December (after they have achieved some cold hardiness AND are moving 
> toward deep dormancy) is to assure that the buds you are counting on 
> for propagation have not been exposed to bud killing/damageing 
> critical cold temperatures.
>  
> Peter Salonius
> ========================================================================================
>
>
>  
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     From: smelchis at maine.rr.com
>     Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:21:32 -0500
>     To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
>     Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>
>     Jean,
>     I take cuttings in late February so the temps aren't extremely
>     low....I'll say down into the upper teens, at worst, and then into
>     the 30s and 40s....yesterday I woke up to -3/F and it "warmed up"
>     to 7F by sundown....this morning it was -10F....but these are
>     January temps for coastal/semi-inland maine. By February, things
>     are a bit better. I wouldn't prune now for all the tea in Boston...
>     best,
>     steve
>     maine coast vineyards
>     On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Jean Houle wrote:
>
>         Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature
>         does that sand box go down to?
>
>         Jean Houle
>         Charlemagne Quebec
>         Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada
>         Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a
>         Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec
>
>         "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est
>         n?, et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait."
>         Jacques Puisais
>
>         "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on
>         other adaptive hybrids."
>         Elmer Swenson 
>          
>
>
>         > From: smelchis at maine.rr.com <mailto:smelchis at maine.rr.com>
>         > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500
>         > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
>         <mailto:growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>         > Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>         >
>         > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and
>         simply bury
>         > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box
>         outside or
>         > in my unheated barn...... 
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit
>         asksanta.ca to learn more!
>         <http://asksanta.ca/?icid=SANTAENCA005>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Growwine mailing list
>         Growwine at littlefatwino.com <mailto:Growwine at littlefatwino.com>
>         http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with Sympatico / 
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>
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>
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>   
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008 12:05 PM
>   
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From smelchis at maine.rr.com  Sat Jan  5 10:03:15 2008
From: smelchis at maine.rr.com (Steve Melchiskey)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:03:15 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttings
In-Reply-To: <BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
	<688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6CEB8A9D-1480-47CC-AA5E-41E72244248D@maine.rr.com>

Peter,
With the exception of Leon Millot, which I find to suffer damage but  
rebound well and productively with the exception of the persistent  
crown gall, most of our vineyard is in the hardier varieties such as  
St. Croix, St. Pepin, LaCrescent, Prarie Star, Sabrevois and the like  
and I've had -15F--20F without having any issues with propagation  
after later pruning. I get very good set of these varieties.  But  
your insight is appreciated and is confirmation of some of my  
planting decisions (not that I'm batting much more than .290 anyway....)

And although I'm a "northern grape grower" and get all the twists and  
turns people do to grow grapes up here, I still don't understand the  
sense of growing grapes commercially in the north when "most of the  
buds above the Snow Line.....will be dead...."  I get the lure and  
the challenge and love watching it and experimenting with it myself.  
But wow. Lousy way to wake up every spring, no?

best,
steve
maine coast vineyards
On Jan 5, 2008, at 7:51 AM, peter salonius wrote:

> Steve
>
> Your -10F is too close to  -25C at which even moderately hardy  
> varieties such as Marechal foch begin to experience bud damage.
>
> We have just had a night at -32C  here so most of the buds above  
> the SNOW LINE on all but the most hardy varieties will be dead or  
> have some damage.
>
> I can appreciate you not wanting to prune in this cold weather ---
>
> ---- however the reason for taking cuttings in late November or  
> early December (after they have achieved some cold hardiness AND  
> are moving toward deep dormancy) is to assure that the buds you are  
> counting on for propagation have not been exposed to bud killing/ 
> damageing critical cold temperatures.
>
> Peter Salonius
> ====================================================================== 
> ==================
>
>
>
> From: smelchis at maine.rr.com
> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:21:32 -0500
> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
>
> Jean,
> I take cuttings in late February so the temps aren't extremely  
> low....I'll say down into the upper teens, at worst, and then into  
> the 30s and 40s....yesterday I woke up to -3/F and it "warmed up"  
> to 7F by sundown....this morning it was -10F....but these are  
> January temps for coastal/semi-inland maine. By February, things  
> are a bit better. I wouldn't prune now for all the tea in Boston...
> best,
> steve
> maine coast vineyards
> On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Jean Houle wrote:
>
> Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature does  
> that sand box go down to?
>
> Jean Houle
> Charlemagne Quebec
> Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada
> Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a
> Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec
>
> "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?,  
> et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait."
> Jacques Puisais
>
> "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other  
> adaptive hybrids."
> Elmer Swenson
>
>
> > From: smelchis at maine.rr.com
> > Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500
> > To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
> > Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings
> >
> > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury
> > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or
> > in my unheated barn......
>
>
> HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit  
> asksanta.ca to learn more!
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine
>
>
> Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with Sympatico /  
> MSN Shopping today!
> _______________________________________________
> Growwine mailing list
> Growwine at littlefatwino.com
> http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine

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From midmp at abacom.com  Sat Jan  5 13:13:17 2008
From: midmp at abacom.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_Par=E9?=)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:13:17 -0800
Subject: [Growwine] Hops in ... wine?
In-Reply-To: <477F7CE0.4040400@sympatico.ca>
References: <412252.78914.qm@web56802.mail.re3.yahoo.com>,
	<477F7CE0.4040400@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <477F583D.24053.327BE80@midmp.abacom.com>

Hi,

for experimental, it may work (maybe you can find some wild hops on a road 
side - I've spotted 3 places 'round here i need to get rhizomes from this 
Spring - likely to put in a tentative mead) but for greater volumes I read that 
the micro-breweries are dealing with a hops shortage on the market.

martin
>   
> 



From petersalonius at hotmail.com  Sat Jan  5 15:50:28 2008
From: petersalonius at hotmail.com (peter salonius)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 16:50:28 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Holy Grail
In-Reply-To: <6CEB8A9D-1480-47CC-AA5E-41E72244248D@maine.rr.com>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
	<688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl> 
	<6CEB8A9D-1480-47CC-AA5E-41E72244248D@maine.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY136-W4145215BACF1D280CB487AA94D0@phx.gbl>


Steve
 
Re: Your mistification as you say " I still don't understand the sense of growing grapes commercially in the north when "most of the buds above the Snow Line.....will be dead...." 
 
Few of us are growing grapes commercially and I'm sure most of us are entranced by "the lure and the challenge and love watching it and experimenting" that you speak of.
 
Growing grapes in New Brunswick still seems - after more than a decade - to be like growing bananas!
 
WE SEEK THE HOLY GRAIL BY CONSTANT EXPERIMENTATION LOOKING FOR varieties that will:
1. tolerate -40C above the snow line without bud damage
2. ripen reliably in summers with 120 frost free days and only 800 Growing Degree Days (base 10C)
3. be disease resistant enough NOT to require spraying in the wettest summers
4. make tolerable wine with such techniques as carbonic maceration, acid reducing yeast, malolactic fermentation etc to get acids down
 
Still crazy after all these years, I am
 
Peter Salonius
 
================================================================================
 


From: smelchis at maine.rr.comDate: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:03:15 -0500To: growwine at littlefatwino.comSubject: Re: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttingsPeter,  

With the exception of Leon Millot, which I find to suffer damage but rebound well and productively with the exception of the persistent crown gall, most of our vineyard is in the hardier varieties such as St. Croix, St. Pepin, LaCrescent, Prarie Star, Sabrevois and the like and I've had -15F--20F without having any issues with propagation after later pruning. I get very good set of these varieties.  But your insight is appreciated and is confirmation of some of my planting decisions (not that I'm batting much more than .290 anyway....) 

And although I'm a "northern grape grower" and get all the twists and turns people do to grow grapes up here, I still don't understand the sense of growing grapes commercially in the north when "most of the buds above the Snow Line.....will be dead...."  I get the lure and the challenge and love watching it and experimenting with it myself. But wow. Lousy way to wake up every spring, no?

best,
steve
maine coast vineyards

On Jan 5, 2008, at 7:51 AM, peter salonius wrote:
Steve Your -10F is too close to  -25C at which even moderately hardy varieties such as Marechal foch begin to experience bud damage. We have just had a night at -32C  here so most of the buds above the SNOW LINE on all but the most hardy varieties will be dead or have some damage. I can appreciate you not wanting to prune in this cold weather --- ---- however the reason for taking cuttings in late November or early December (after they have achieved some cold hardiness AND are moving toward deep dormancy) is to assure that the buds you are counting on for propagation have not been exposed to bud killing/damageing critical cold temperatures. Peter Salonius======================================================================================== 


From: smelchis at maine.rr.comDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:21:32 -0500To: growwine at littlefatwino.comSubject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of CuttingsJean, 
I take cuttings in late February so the temps aren't extremely low....I'll say down into the upper teens, at worst, and then into the 30s and 40s....yesterday I woke up to -3/F and it "warmed up" to 7F by sundown....this morning it was -10F....but these are January temps for coastal/semi-inland maine. By February, things are a bit better. I wouldn't prune now for all the tea in Boston...
best,
steve
maine coast vineyards

On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Jean Houle wrote:
Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature does that sand box go down to?Jean Houle Charlemagne Quebec Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?, et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait." Jacques Puisais "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other adaptive hybrids." Elmer Swenson  
> From: smelchis at maine.rr.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings> > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or > in my unheated barn......  

HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit asksanta.ca to learn more! 
_______________________________________________
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Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine

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From petersalonius at hotmail.com  Sat Jan  5 15:55:12 2008
From: petersalonius at hotmail.com (peter salonius)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 16:55:12 -0400
Subject: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttings
In-Reply-To: <477F93F2.60108@ns.sympatico.ca>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
	<688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl> 
	<477F93F2.60108@ns.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY136-W330EC6E9B89AEAAAFAEDC3A94D0@phx.gbl>


Karen 
 
SW Nova Scotia is the 'banana' belt of the Maritimes --- I'm in central New Brunswick ~30 Km north of Fredericton at the bottom of a deep  valley ---- where you learn pretty quick that cold air is heavier than warm air.
 
Peter Salonius==============================================================================================


Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:28:02 -0400From: karen.enright at ns.sympatico.caTo: growwine at littlefatwino.comSubject: Re: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttings
Peter,Out of curiosity where are you located.  We're in southwest Nova Scotia and so far this has been the worst winter in a couple of decades.  Thankfully, we have great snow cover!Karen Enrightpeter salonius wrote: 


Steve Your -10F is too close to  -25C at which even moderately hardy varieties such as Marechal foch begin to experience bud damage. We have just had a night at -32C  here so most of the buds above the SNOW LINE on all but the most hardy varieties will be dead or have some damage. I can appreciate you not wanting to prune in this cold weather --- ---- however the reason for taking cuttings in late November or early December (after they have achieved some cold hardiness AND are moving toward deep dormancy) is to assure that the buds you are counting on for propagation have not been exposed to bud killing/damageing critical cold temperatures. Peter Salonius======================================================================================== 


From: smelchis at maine.rr.comDate: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:21:32 -0500To: growwine at littlefatwino.comSubject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of CuttingsJean, 
I take cuttings in late February so the temps aren't extremely low....I'll say down into the upper teens, at worst, and then into the 30s and 40s....yesterday I woke up to -3/F and it "warmed up" to 7F by sundown....this morning it was -10F....but these are January temps for coastal/semi-inland maine. By February, things are a bit better. I wouldn't prune now for all the tea in Boston...
best,
steve
maine coast vineyards

On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Jean Houle wrote:
Steve, out of curiosity, you are in Maine what temperature does that sand box go down to?Jean Houle Charlemagne Quebec Zone de rusticit? 4b-5a du Canada Canada plant hardiness zone 4b-5a Sud-ouest du Qu?bec / Southwest Qu?bec "Petit ou grand, un bon vin a la gueule de l'endroit o? il est n?, et les tripes du bonhomme qui l'a fait." Jacques Puisais "The best chance of success is crossing adaptive hybrids on other adaptive hybrids." Elmer Swenson  
> From: smelchis at maine.rr.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:49:47 -0500> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Winter Storage of Cuttings> > I take a good-sized box and fill it with damp sand and simply bury > the cuttings in the middle of the sand and leave the box outside or > in my unheated barn......  

HO HO HO, if you've been nice this year, email Santa! Visit asksanta.ca to learn more! 
_______________________________________________
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Growwine at littlefatwino.com
http://lists.littlefatwino.com/mailman/listinfo/growwine

Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! 
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008 12:05 PM
  
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From smelchis at maine.rr.com  Sat Jan  5 15:59:38 2008
From: smelchis at maine.rr.com (Steve Melchiskey)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:59:38 -0500
Subject: [Growwine] Holy Grail
In-Reply-To: <BAY136-W4145215BACF1D280CB487AA94D0@phx.gbl>
References: <001401c84b00$ff807130$2324cdd1@mycomputer>
	<BAY136-W33D1722CEF5D405FC761D6A9500@phx.gbl>
	<5c2c9c910712310904g5d42d39i40c08ceba790bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<F3423317-F699-4376-ADA5-1FC18AC107E3@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY114-W15F22A1AEC68CBEB145F89AE4C0@phx.gbl>
	<688B29F3-51DB-4981-862F-4946BACC8638@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY136-W45AAD3889E01C8A3454592A94D0@phx.gbl>
	<6CEB8A9D-1480-47CC-AA5E-41E72244248D@maine.rr.com>
	<BAY136-W4145215BACF1D280CB487AA94D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E5807ADC-47BB-4B40-8763-2A18EFEBFFAE@maine.rr.com>

and that's why i like you peter!
steve
maine coast vineyards
On Jan 5, 2008, at 3:50 PM, peter salonius wrote:

> Steve
>
> Re: Your mistification as you say " I still don't understand the  
> sense of growing grapes commercially in the north when "most of the  
> buds above the Snow Line.....will be dead...."
>
> Few of us are growing grapes commercially and I'm sure most of us  
> are entranced by "the lure and the challenge and love watching it  
> and experimenting" that you speak of.
>
> Growing grapes in New Brunswick still seems - after more than a  
> decade - to be like growing bananas!
>
> WE SEEK THE HOLY GRAIL BY CONSTANT EXPERIMENTATION LOOKING FOR  
> varieties that will:
> 1. tolerate -40C above the snow line without bud damage
> 2. ripen reliably in summers with 120 frost free days and only 800  
> Growing Degree Days (base 10C)
> 3. be disease resistant enough NOT to require spraying in the  
> wettest summers
> 4. make tolerable wine with such techniques as carbonic maceration,  
> acid reducing yeast, malolactic fermentation etc to get acids down
>
> Still crazy after all these years, I am
>
> Peter Salonius
>
> ====================================================================== 
> ==========
>
> From: smelchis at maine.rr.com
> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 10:03:15 -0500
> To: growwine at littlefatwino.com
> Subject: Re: [Growwine] Pruning - not the same as taking cuttings
>
> Peter,
> With the exception of Leon Millot, which I find to suffer damage  
> but rebound well and productively with the exception of the  
> persistent crown gall, most of our vineyard is in the hardier  
> varieties such as St. Croix, St. Pepin, LaCrescent, Prarie Star,  
> Sabrevois and the like and I've had -15F--20F without having any  
> issues with propagation after later pruning. I get very good set of  
> these varieties.  But your insight is appreciated and is  
> confirmation of some of my planting decisions (not that I'm batting  
> much more than .290 anyway....)
>
> And although I'm a "northern grape grower" and get all the twists  
> and turns people do to grow grapes up here, I still don't  
> u